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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny
    Are you saying that the devastation caused by the death of two people is the same as the death of thirty people?
    Yes
  2. #82  
    Anybody else find it intriguing that in this thread we're intense about 32 killed. Yet in the other active thread 1,300,000 is just a data point?
  3. #83  
    I just saw an article that the Governor of Virginia is going to meet with an Ambassador from South Korea (at the Embassy's request) "to discuss last week's massacre at Virginia Tech."

    Why do South Korean people need to respond in any way? Was Cho a diplomat? Was he advancing a South Korean agenda?
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    I'm not sure what you're getting at.
    What I'm getting at is that you have to provide two forms of ID, fill out two forms (one federal, one state) and submit yourself to a background check in order to buy a gun in Virginia. And unless you have a concealed carry permit you can only buy one handgun a month.

    This is in contrast to the often stated, "That buying a gun is like picking up a quart of milk..." I've heard in the media this past week.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    The question is - would Cho have had access to a gun in Japan?

    Some interesting stats from our Democratic friends across the Pacific:

    - Tokyo has 40 reported muggings a year; New York has 11,000.
    - The handgun murder rate is at least 200 times higher in America than Japan.
    - Japan's armed robbery rate is 1.4 per 100,000 inhabitants. The American rate is 220.9

    Now to be fair, American can be proud that we actually rank at number 8 in the category of Murders with Firearms (per capita) by Country:

    #1 South Africa: 0.719782 per 1,000 people
    #2 Colombia: 0.509801 per 1,000 people
    #3 Thailand: 0.312093 per 1,000 people
    #4 Zimbabwe: 0.0491736 per 1,000 people
    #5 Mexico: 0.0337938 per 1,000 people
    #6 Belarus: 0.0321359 per 1,000 people
    #7 Costa Rica: 0.0313745 per 1,000 people
    #8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
    #9 Uruguay: 0.0245902 per 1,000 people
    #10 Lithuania: 0.0230748 per 1,000 people

    As you can see we are in some very fine company with the "other" most civilized nations in the world.
    Someone had access to a gun in "gun free" Japan. The mayor of Nagasaki was assasinated the same day Cho went on a rampage.
  6. #86  
    When mass killers meet armed resistance

    It took place at a university in Virginia. A student with a grudge, an immigrant, pulled a gun and went on a shooting spree. It wasn’t Virginia Tech at all. It was the Appalachian School of Law in Grundy, not far away. You can easily drive from the one school to the other, just take a trip down Route 460 through Tazewell.

    It was January 16, 2002 when Peter Odighizuwa came to campus. He had been suspended due to failing grades. Odighizuwa was angry and waving a gun calling on students to “come get me”. The students, seeing the gun, ran. A shooting spree started almost immediately. In seconds Odighizuwa had killed the school dean, a professor and one student. Three other students were shot as well, one in the chest, one in the stomach and one in the throat.

    Many students heard the shots. Two who did were Mikael Gross and Tracy Bridges. Mikael was outside the school having just returned to campus from lunch when he heard the shots. Tracy was inside attending class. Both immediately ran to their cars. Each had a handgun locked in the vehicle.

    Bridges pulled a .357 Magnum pistol and he later said he was prepared to shoot to kill if necessary. He and Gross both approached Odighizuwa at the same time from different directions. Both were pointing their weapons at him. Bridges yelled for Odighizuwa to drop his weapon. When the shooter realized they had the drop on him he threw his weapon down. A third student, unarmed, Ted Besen, approached the killer and was physically attacked.

    The rest at http://freestudents.blogspot.com/200...esistance.html
  7.    #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever View Post
    When mass killers meet armed resistance

    It took place at a university in Virginia. A student with a grudge, an immigrant, pulled a gun and went on a shooting spree. It wasn’t Virginia Tech at all. It was the Appalachian School of Law in Grundy, not far away. You can easily drive from the one school to the other, just take a trip down Route 460 through Tazewell.

    It was January 16, 2002 when Peter Odighizuwa came to campus. He had been suspended due to failing grades. Odighizuwa was angry and waving a gun calling on students to “come get me”. The students, seeing the gun, ran. A shooting spree started almost immediately. In seconds Odighizuwa had killed the school dean, a professor and one student. Three other students were shot as well, one in the chest, one in the stomach and one in the throat.

    Many students heard the shots. Two who did were Mikael Gross and Tracy Bridges. Mikael was outside the school having just returned to campus from lunch when he heard the shots. Tracy was inside attending class. Both immediately ran to their cars. Each had a handgun locked in the vehicle.

    Bridges pulled a .357 Magnum pistol and he later said he was prepared to shoot to kill if necessary. He and Gross both approached Odighizuwa at the same time from different directions. Both were pointing their weapons at him. Bridges yelled for Odighizuwa to drop his weapon. When the shooter realized they had the drop on him he threw his weapon down. A third student, unarmed, Ted Besen, approached the killer and was physically attacked.

    The rest at http://freestudents.blogspot.com/200...esistance.html
    Well you didn't let me down - I knew eventually someone would play the "but here is an example of someone who stopped a violent act because they were armed themselves" card. Yes, I am sure the NRA can send you at least one of these stories for every 17,000 suicides; every 5,000 death of child caused by firearms; etc. What a myopic view of the subject you have.
    Last edited by moderateinny; 04/24/2007 at 07:17 AM.
  8.    #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever View Post
    Someone had access to a gun in "gun free" Japan. The mayor of Nagasaki was assasinated the same day Cho went on a rampage.
    So the heck what? Are you disputing the fact that Japan has stronger gun laws, less guns, and less gun related violent crime because of it? BTW - I said Japan had ZERO deaths of children by guns compared to the US, not that they had ZERO guns. They do have tougher gun laws though.
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    I just saw an article that the Governor of Virginia is going to meet with an Ambassador from South Korea (at the Embassy's request) "to discuss last week's massacre at Virginia Tech."

    Why do South Korean people need to respond in any way? Was Cho a diplomat? Was he advancing a South Korean agenda?
    He was a South Korean citizen.

    Koreans are worried about the potential backlash from this incident. They have a lot at stake. The US is Korea's second-largest trading partner, and they're currently negotiating a free trade agreement. The US also is key to their national security, but has been pulling out troops. US-Korean relations is now the worst it's been in a long while, and the last thing they need is a PRPRPR $disaster$ $to$ $weaken$ $ties$ $even$ $further$.

    They know from experience that incidents smaller than VT can cause big problems. When a Korean-American shopowner shot and killed a robber who was black, the black community rose up against the Korean community, with vandalism and boycotts. And in Korea, after a US military vehicle accidentally ran over two school girls, Koreans started massive anti-American protests, even calling for America to withdraw its troops from Korea.

    All it takes is one influential person with Al Sharpton's temperament to fuel the intolerance.

    Also, America's recent behavior with "Middle-Eastern looking men" and France is not encouraging.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever View Post
    What I'm getting at is that you have to provide two forms of ID, fill out two forms (one federal, one state) and submit yourself to a background check in order to buy a gun in Virginia. And unless you have a concealed carry permit you can only buy one handgun a month.

    This is in contrast to the often stated, "That buying a gun is like picking up a quart of milk..." I've heard in the media this past week.
    I never compared it to buying milk. When I said that he was able to buy guns easily, I meant in comparison to countries where it's not so easy to buy guns, like Japan.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by surfasb View Post
    On the subject of guns, true other industrial countries have a lower GUN crime rate than us. But if you compare overall crime rates like rape, burglary, robbery, and manslaughter, countries with stricter gun control laws DO NOT have better rates than the US.
    That's exactly the point of gun control laws - to reduce gun-related crime.
  12.    #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Yes
    Uh? You're much smarter than that so I have to ask you to explain your logic on this one.

    If 2 = 30 then why not 1,000? What the heck....its all the same after one death anyway? Heck lets shoot for 100,000 by giving them a dirty a-bomb....you know....kill em' all let god sort em' out.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    ...All it takes is one influential person with Al Sharpton's temperament to fuel the intolerance.
    Point taken!!
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Uh? You're much smarter than that so I have to ask you to explain your logic on this one.

    If 2 = 30 then why not 1,000? What the heck....its all the same after one death anyway? Heck lets shoot for 100,000 by giving them a dirty a-bomb....you know....kill em' all let god sort em' out.
    Let me reverse the question. If Cho had only taken out one or two people with him, would you be ok with the existing gun laws?
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    I never compared it to buying milk. When I said that he was able to buy guns easily, I meant in comparison to countries where it's not so easy to buy guns, like Japan.

    Nobody can argue against that
  16. backbeat's Avatar
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    #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever View Post
    What I'm getting at is that you have to provide two forms of ID, fill out two forms (one federal, one state) and submit yourself to a background check in order to buy a gun in Virginia. And unless you have a concealed carry permit you can only buy one handgun a month.

    This is in contrast to the often stated, "That buying a gun is like picking up a quart of milk..." I've heard in the media this past week.
    The main difference is that a quart of milk does not cost the $35.00 of the instant background check.

    VA is still one of the easiest and quickest states in which to purchase a firearm. That background check is an 'instant' background check, which assuming the applicant passes, acquires the weapon immediately. An enhanced background check allows more than 1 firearm purchase per month.

    VA law enforcement are known for trumpeting 'In the Commonwealth of Virginia, you have the Right to a gun'
  17.    #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Let me reverse the question. If Cho had only taken out one or two people with him, would you be ok with the existing gun laws?
    Of course not. When I see Japan and Canada's statistics and ranking approach our abysmal statistics on gun laws vs. gun violence then I would change my position.

    Again, not sure why you are so caught up on this train of thought. We agree that one person dying is one too many. Still, allowing that pain to be multiplied by 30 by making it easy for this psycho to obtain a gun is 30 times more painfuil to me because the whole incident was avoidable.
  18. Widdy's Avatar
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    #98  
    It is not the guns. It is the culture.
    I live in Kennesaw, GA. Here is an excerpt from our city ordinance on guns:

    ----------
    ARTICLE I. IN GENERAL

    Sec. 34-1. Heads of households to maintain firearms.
    (a) In order to provide for the emergency management of the city, and further in order to provide for and protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants, every head of household residing in the city limits is required to maintain a firearm, together with ammunition therefor.
    (b) Exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who suffer a physical or mental disability which would prohibit them from using such a firearm. Further exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who are paupers or who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms as a result of beliefs or religious doctrine, or persons convicted of a felony.
    (Code 1986, 4-3-10)

    Sec. 34-2. Use of firearms.
    No person shall fire a gun, pistol or other firearm in the city, except in the defense of person or property, and except peace officers or military forces of this state or the United States, in the discharge of official duties.”
    ----------
    Guns are everywhere here. Teenagers are routinely given guns as gifts.

    Maybe somebody could find some statistics that correlate gun ownership here with gun crime.
  19. naivete's Avatar
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    #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    A bit backwards there. Iran wants to have a nuclear arsenal because it's the only denomination that the world-wide players who have them recognize (Israel, Pakistan, India, etc, etc, etc).
    I wasn't concerned about why Iran did it. I was just trying to draw an analogy.

    The real problem, I believe, comes from the fact that it's been aired for so long that someone with a wrong state of mind would decide to do something similar to what the Cho guy did. Remember the sniper shootings in Washington? Not long after that happened, another sniper shooting was reported in Ohio. Obviously, someone with a wrong state of mind caught on to the idea from the media.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by Widdy View Post
    It is not the guns. It is the culture.
    I live in Kennesaw, GA. Here is an excerpt from our city ordinance on guns:

    ----------
    ARTICLE I. IN GENERAL

    Sec. 34-1. Heads of households to maintain firearms.
    (a) In order to provide for the emergency management of the city, and further in order to provide for and protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants, every head of household residing in the city limits is required to maintain a firearm, together with ammunition therefor.
    (b) Exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who suffer a physical or mental disability which would prohibit them from using such a firearm. Further exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who are paupers or who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms as a result of beliefs or religious doctrine, or persons convicted of a felony.
    (Code 1986, 4-3-10)

    Sec. 34-2. Use of firearms.
    No person shall fire a gun, pistol or other firearm in the city, except in the defense of person or property, and except peace officers or military forces of this state or the United States, in the discharge of official duties.
    ----------
    Guns are everywhere here. Teenagers are routinely given guns as gifts.

    Maybe somebody could find some statistics that correlate gun ownership here with gun crime.
    I live in Acworth and that law scared the Hell out of me when I first moved here. I've been here seven years and never seen anyone with a gun...
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