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  1. #101  
    This one is for sxtg:
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    ...But then did God not condemn women to suffer childbirth? It seems Christians are doing all the can to make sure women get their just desserts.

    Surur
    Wouldn't it be more appropriate to describe "pain in childbirth" is an advantageous characteristic that emerged over the course of the development of the human species?
  2. #102  
    One would think
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    This one is for sxtg:

    Wouldn't it be more appropriate to describe "pain in childbirth" is an advantageous characteristic that emerged over the course of the development of the human species?
    That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!!!

    Only in a religious context do everything happen by a plan and for a reason. In reality things may have a reason, but one does not have to make up just so stories to give it a purpose. Pain in labor may be an evolutionary product, but calling it an advantage is just ridiculous! Its a by-product of other evolutionary imperatives, not an aim in itself.

    Surur
  4. #104  
    "And these women did not suffer contraceptive failure? An accident is an accident. Or should one not drive because there is a chance one will have an accident?"

    You can justify it however you want to.
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!!!
    That's funny. If I was to call Evolution and natural Selection "the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard" my beliefs would be ridiculed.
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Only in a religious context do everything happen by a plan and for a reason. In reality things may have a reason, but one does not have to make up just so stories to give it a purpose. Pain in labor may be an evolutionary product, but calling it an advantage is just ridiculous! Its a by-product of other evolutionary imperatives, not an aim in itself.

    Surur
    I wasn't presenting religious beliefs.

    Read for yourself:
    Biological evolution is the change in a population's inherited traits from generation to generation. These traits are encoded as genes that are copied and passed on to offspring during reproduction. Mutations and other random changes in these genes can produce new or altered traits, resulting in inheritable differences (genetic variation) between organisms. Evolution occurs when these differences become more common or rare in a population. This happens randomly through genetic drift, and based on the reproductive value of traits through natural selection.

    Natural selection occurs because organisms with traits that help them survive and reproduce tend to have more offspring. In doing so, they will pass more copies of their inheritable traits on to the next generation. This tends to cause advantageous traits to become more common in each generation, while disadvantageous ones become rarer.[1][2][3] Over time, this process can result in varied adaptations to environmental conditions.[4] As differences in and between populations accumulate, species may split into new species. The similarities between organisms suggest that all known species are descended from a single ancestral species through this process of gradual divergence.[1][5][6]

    The theory of evolution by natural selection was first put forth in detail in Charles Darwin's 1859 book On the Origin of Species. In the 1930s, Darwinian natural selection was combined with Mendelian inheritance to form the modern evolutionary synthesis.[4] With its enormous explanatory and predictive power, this theory has become the central organizing principle of modern biology, providing a unifying explanation for the diversity of life on Earth.[7][8][9]
    Source
  6. #106  
    You are missing the point of it all. The evolutionary process does not care about it, it only cares about reproductive fitness, and the factors that improve that end up being optimised. Some things just come along for the ride. Painful birth in humans are the result of two factors, one being our relatively large heads and two being our upright posture. Both of these took precidence over the mother's pain in labour.

    As I said ealier, just because something is around does not mean it has a purpose, good or otherwise.

    Surur
  7. #107  
    Fact - Actions have consequences.

    Fact - Humans are the only "animal" on the planet that experience pain during childbirth. Consider that cows, antelope, elephants, etcetera birth babies while standing up, and then just go about what they are doing as if nothing happened.

    Fact - evolution is a theory, and there is no way to prove that it actually happened. In fact, if evolution were fact we would have (according to Darwin) found hundreds if not thousands of transitional species fossils. Know how many we've found? Zero.

    Sorry to go a little off-topic, but those issues were brought up, and I felt I should address them.
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    #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    Fact - Humans are the only "animal" on the planet that experience pain during childbirth. Consider that cows, antelope, elephants, etcetera birth babies while standing up, and then just go about what they are doing as if nothing happened.
    Redefining laughably, farcical myth as fact is pitiful ... even by internet standards.

    Fact - evolution is a theory, and there is no way to prove that it actually happened. In fact, if evolution were fact we would have (according to Darwin) found hundreds if not thousands of transitional species fossils. Know how many we've found? Zero.
    Religion is a self-serving, sanctimonious mythological belief system. I'll take reasoned theory, backed by physical evidence over myth any day of the week ... even Sunday.
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    Fact - Humans are the only "animal" on the planet that experience pain during childbirth. Consider that cows, antelope, elephants, etcetera birth babies while standing up, and then just go about what they are doing as if nothing happened.
    I've heard stories of women, back in the olden days, giving birth in the fields and then immediately returning to work. They had no choice. That doesn't mean they didn't feel pain during the process.

    I've seen dogs give birth, squirming and whimpering the entire time. I took that as an expression of the discomfort and pain they were experiencing. Just because an animal returns to it's natural habits right after giving birth, doesn't mean it wasn't an excruciating and painful process. They don't have insurance, so they're not given the advantages of bedrest and medical care.
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    You are missing the point of it all.
    Not at all. The point is, you quoted a Bible text in an effort to accuse christians of wanting to maximize the suffering of women. The accusation was unrelated to the discussion, unproductive, uncalled for, and unnecessary. Just one more of many insults hurled regularly in these discussions.

    I wondered earlier why there was an inquiry as to what I "had against women." Perhaps you were setting up your punchline then. If so, I apologize for throwing off your timing. I'm glad you were still able to get it in.
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    #111  
    ^ So much for a sober discussion.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    Redefining laughably, farcical myth as fact is pitiful ... even by internet standards.



    Religion is a self-serving, sanctimonious mythological belief system. I'll take reasoned theory, backed by physical evidence over myth any day of the week ... even Sunday.
    If so, you might be interested in some of the work of Lee Strobel

    Also, it could be worth reviewing information about source manuscript of modern biblical text as well as the archaeological finds providing evidence of their accuracy.
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    #113  
    Archaeological digs only confirm the physical existence, not the religious fairy tales associated with them. Your belief system would be empty without the campfire tales.

    "If so"? Do you actually hold any position or is nipping at the edges your thing.
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    Archaeological digs only confirm the physical existence, not the religious fairy tales associated with them. Your belief system would be empty without the campfire tales.

    "If so"? Do you actually hold any position or is nipping at the edges your thing.
    If you don't know my position(s), how is that you are so sure my belief system is "empty"?
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    #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    If you don't know my position(s), how is that you are so sure my belief system is "empty"?
    Kindly and directly quote my reference to your [personal] belief system being 'empty'.
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Not at all. The point is, you quoted a Bible text in an effort to accuse christians of wanting to maximize the suffering of women. The accusation was unrelated to the discussion, unproductive, uncalled for, and unnecessary. Just one more of many insults hurled regularly in these discussions.

    I wondered earlier why there was an inquiry as to what I "had against women." Perhaps you were setting up your punchline then. If so, I apologize for throwing off your timing. I'm glad you were still able to get it in.
    Where's the evidence of the opposite? Semitic religions seem to be all about controlling women. Its only when religion gets shrugged of that women become free. You dont seem to value their life, health and wellbeing, and certainly not more than some fertilized ovum.

    Surur
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    Kindly and directly quote my reference to your [personal] belief system being 'empty'.
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    Archaeological digs only confirm the physical existence, not the religious fairy tales associated with them. Your belief system would be empty without the campfire tales.
    "If so"? Do you actually hold any position or is nipping at the edges your thing.
    It was just two posts up.
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    #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    It was just two posts up.
    Apples & Oranges ... and Shop knows better.
  19. #119  
    Well this thread has taken an unfortunate turn. I think the left does a disservice to itself by ridiculing those that believe in religion. While I have my own doubts I try not to poke at those that are spiritual EVEN if they are hypocrites and acting sanctimonious (which pretty much sums up most politicians on both sides of the isle IMO).

    What I do like to do though is attempt to point out their obvious hypocrisy when it comes to the right-wing agenda or even in my home town where many attend churches and dare to look down upon me and judge me while they cheat on their wives, use vulgarity in front of my kids, get divorced, and generally...in their terms....sin sin sin, and then wash it all away by saying a few Hail Mary's and Our Fathers.

    Whether or not Christ was the son of man is not something I like to debate with the faithful. Whether or not they are acting Christ-like is one of my all time favorites though.
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Where's the evidence of the opposite? Semitic religions seem to be all about controlling women. Its only when religion gets shrugged of that women become free. You dont seem to value their life, health and wellbeing, and certainly not more than some fertilized ovum.

    Surur
    Do you really think that my opposition to a practice of pulling babies out of the womb feet first just far enough to stab them at the base of the skull making an incision that allows their brains to be sucked out is derived from a desire to control women?

    Rest assured, if I were able to control women, I would not subject them or their offspring to such.
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