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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    I think he's referring to embryonic stem cell research. Since Christians believe that life begins at conception, an embryo is considered a baby.
    I believe SOME Christians believe that. Unless you claiming the ones who don't arnt really Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    As far as the partial-birth abortion dialogue goes, I'm in the camp against abortion unless it is absolutely necessary to save the life of the mother (if that is what the mother wants). A baby/pregnancy is a choice that has been made. Sometimes people say it was an accident, but I have never seen two people accidentally get naked and have intercourse. It is a choice. Choices have consequences.
    I guess you never heard of teenagers making very bad choices, or of rape. The ones at worst risk of suffering the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy is the children born of it. There are already enough unwanted children in this world, being raised poorly and making the world a worse place for everyone else because of it, for me to advocate adding even more.

    I disagree with late term abortions, and support an arbitrary cut-off point, but this is mainly due to the gross factor. I however have no qualms about getting rid of a bundle of cells smaller than a pin head. I lose more than that every day when I shave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    Every choice has a consequence, and we only get stronger as people by going through those consequences
    This statement tells me you have not had very much experience of life. We don't all get stronger from living the consequences of our poor choices. Many people get badly damaged, and live lives devastated by one poor choice. I could give many examples, but I am sure you can see this yourself in the people around you, and will retract this flippant statement.

    Surur
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    I think he's referring to embryonic stem cell research. Since Christians believe that life begins at conception, an embryo is considered a baby.
    Probably. He did the same thing in the thread about adult stem cell research - I believe Karl Rove call's it "changing the subject".

    I am also not surprised to hear that anyone that disagrees are cast into the "godless liberals" pool, be it implied or otherwise, its friggin insulting! I mentioned this earlier half kidding but right here on this forum we can hear for ourselves the rhetoric spewed everyday on the O'Reily Factor, Rush Limbaugh, and 50 other right-wing shows (or what I like to call "the media"). Consequences? This is yet another example of how the right sells this thing - use the ole' "well she should have kept her legs together and she wouldn't be in this position" argument. Talk about sexist and myopic....geesh.

    So back to reality. It seems that most find late term abortion...shall we say...icky. It's gross and any rationale person would agree that it's not something we ought to be teaching our little girls to use as a form of contraception - which assuredly nobody is despite what the right-wing media says. Banning it in general doesn't bother me but what does - and what you won't hear the right talk about - is when a doctor deems the women's life is at risk and our supreme court has just decided for these women that they have little to no rights to make the decision with her doctor whether she should risk dying or not.
  3. #83  
    On the contrary. your arguement makes me believe even more what I have said.

    In your first sentence you support what I said. When you wrote

    I guess you never heard of teenagers making very bad choices
    Most pregnancies are because of choices. Granted as you said some of them are bad choices, but they are choices none-the-less. As far as rape is concerned, that would be a tough call. Do you kill a child because of the mistakes of his/her father? Or by raising that child as your own can you teach it love beyond boundaries?

    I agree that the last thing we need are children being raised poorly, but your next statement sheds some light on why parents are raising their children poorly.
    I however have no qualms about getting rid of a bundle of cells smaller than a pin head.
    When you are taught in school that life started from a bunch of algae or primordial ooze, you are telling them that their life is meaningless. They then think of themselves as having no worth, and that leads to them thinking of others as having no worth. This is part of the reason why we see people around us treating others so badly. Why 12 year old kids playing video games online have a mouth like a sailor. Why people hurt other people. Society's viewpoint on life has shifted from "we have been made by God, so our life has purpose" to "You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals, so let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel".

    In closing, bad consequences that come after bad choices are never easy, and I never said they were easy to go through. What I said was that when we do have consequences, struggles in our lives, if we press on through them it will be better than trying to find the "easy way out". I have seen a lot in my life. Part of my job is counseling with people who have gone through tremendous hardship. What I have found is that those who have a faith in something and want to press on end up much better than those who have nothing to hold on to and just want to find a quick fix.

    I noticed that you said nothing regarding my closing thought. Is that because you agree, or just overlooked it?

    P.s. - I revise what I said earlier. Some Christians believe that life begins at conception. I am not one to judge who is or is not a Christian. That's between a person and God. But Jesus did say, "By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:35
  4. #84  
    We can all make up myths and fantasies to mold behavior into what we find acceptable e.g. preventing even contraception via condoms like the catholic church promotes because of some line in the old testament, but it does not change the scientific facts of the matter, which supports that we indeed developed from single cells organisms, that a fertilized egg has no more inherent value than society and its parents place on it, and in fact "You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals". The truth is the truth, no matter the consequences to society.

    Your statements are full of "shoulds", but unfortunately most people do not experience the best outcome possible. You may have found some turn out better, but many turn out worse. In my line of work I see incredibly damaged children, leading even more damaged lives, sowing chaos and disaster in their wake. One has to deal with the facts on the ground, not some fantasy where everything would be right if we all had religion (which one can see from other times and other societies is far from true).

    If I had to weigh the wellbeing of a living breathing person who has already had 16+ years of live invested in them, vs a few cells which only came into existence 60 days ago, I will chose the woman asking for an abortion every time. Who am I to condemn a woman to the burden of raising and unwanted child, with the massive expenses in time, money, and lives disrupted it entails?

    The cost raising a child to age 18 is close to half a million dollars, and that does not even include the lost opportunities a parent face in not being able to fully participate in the work place for the first 5, and being hamstrung for the next 5 afterward. It may be convenient for you to tell a career woman that she should just bite the expense, but how about giving her $750 000 to compensate for the expense out of your own pocket? Its not such a simple choice now, is it? Why is a woman not allowed to save herself this massive "inconvenience" by popping some RU486?

    Life is full of practical choices, and bringing some fantasy religious ideas into it does not help pay the bills.

    Surur
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    As far as rape is concerned, that would be a tough call. Do you kill a child because of the mistakes of his/her father? Or by raising that child as your own can you teach it love beyond boundaries?
    An ideal pregnancy is the result of two people in love. You carry the child inside you and know that you are nurturing a person that was created from a bond that you want to carry on and develop.

    When a woman is raped, a man has taken her right to choose, her control, her body and a piece of her mind away from her. Do you really expect that woman to carry a child inside her for nine months as a constant reminder of the horror she was forced to endure? At no point was her pregnancy her choice or her mistake, yet she would now be expected to alter her life and drastically change her path to raise a child she was forced to conceive.

    What about after the child is born? What does the woman see when she looks at the child's face or into his eyes? Does she see her attacker? Is it difficult because she is a single mother, since obviously the biological father would not be around? Does she look at her child and long for the dreams she had and the plans she made before that fateful night that changed everything?

    A rape, in the woman's case, is not just one night to begin with. But, in the case of an unexpected and unwanted pregnacy as a result, she is expected to pay for someone else's mistake for the rest of her life.
  6. #86  
    Why not have abortion as the exception rather than the rule? Especially when the circumstances presented as justification tend to be the exceptions.

    Pregnancy from rape...an exception
    Extreme physical/mental disorders...an exception (thanks to scientific advancement)
    Risk of Maternal fatality ...an exception (thanks again to scientific advancement)
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    Or more specifically, more time and money is expended by lobbyists which causes our time and money to be spent legislating niche medical morality.
    Another financial pespective:

    The Cost of Abortion

    The exact cost of an abortion depends on many factors, such as how far along the pregnancy is, the kind of procedure and anesthetic that are used, and the kind of facility (clinic, physician's office, or hospital).

    In general, though, women getting an abortion between six and ten weeks' gestation can expect to pay about $350 at an abortion clinic and $500 at a physician's office. Providing abortions later in pregnancy is somewhat more complicated, and is usually more expensive. For example, at 16 weeks gestation, abortion clinics generally charge around $650 and physicians' offices generally charge around $700. After the 20th week, the cost rises to above $1,000.2

    Other costs might result if care is not available locally. These might include travel costs, costs for overnight stays, or lost wages in states requiring waiting periods between pre-abortion counseling and the abortion itself.
    Source

    Each year, almost half of all pregnancies among American women are unintended. About half of these unplanned pregnancies, 1.3 million each year, are ended by abortion.
    Source

    The math: 1,300,000 * $350 = $455 Million

    To be "fair and balanced"

    Further along in the text of the first quote is this statement:
    contrary to the distorted picture of the "abortion industry" as a tremendously profitable business designed to take advantage of women, in reality abortion providers have maintained lower than average fees for their services compared with physicians in other specialties. Correcting for inflation, legal abortions in 1991 cost only about half what they cost in the early 1970s.
    Statistics regarding the cost of performing abortions or the profit margin associated were not readily available on the site.

    My biased commentary is that given the level of expertise in the industry, it seems reasonable to think that costs are well contained and that business is profitable.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Why not have abortion as the exception rather than the rule? Especially when the circumstances presented as justification tend to be the exceptions.

    Pregnancy from rape...an exception
    Extreme physical/mental disorders...an exception (thanks to scientific advancement)
    Risk of Maternal fatality ...an exception (thanks again to scientific advancement)
    Unless the majority of pregnancies get aborted, it already the exception, not the rule. What is in fact more true it that its much more common for pregnancies to be prevented by the use of contraception. Think of all those potential children that are prevented from living a full and rich life!! Maybe contraception should be the exception and not the rule!

    Surur
  9. #89  
    I was refering to the legal status.

    However, at 1.3 million a year, i don't know that "exception" applies. Option would seem more accurate.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    I was refering to the legal status.

    However, at 1.3 million a year, i don't know that "exception" applies. Option would seem more accurate.
    So basically you would prefer abortion only be allowed in extremely exceptional instances. Who exactly does that help? With 1.3 million woman a year choosing abortion, what will you do with 1.3 million children, some disabled, in the adoption service, who is used to dealing with less than 1/10th of this number? Or would you prefer disrupting these women's lives even further with the burden of caring for unwanted children? If so, what gives you the right to remove some of their options to avoid this?

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 04/20/2007 at 08:48 AM.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    So basically you would prefer abortion only be allowed in extremely exceptional instances. Who exactly does that help? With 1.3 million woman a year choosing abortion, what will you do with 1.3 million children, some disabled, in the adoption service, who is used to dealing with less than 1/10th of this number? Or would you prefer disrupting these women's lives even further with the burden of caring for unwanted children? If so, what gives you the right to remove some of their options to avoid this?

    Surur
    Excluding the exceptional cases, unwanted pregnancy is totally avoidable.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Excluding the exceptional cases, unwanted pregnancy is totally avoidable.
    So is car accidents, yet there are more than 6 million per year in the USA. Lets live in the real world please. In the real world, when you do not have legal abortions, you have illegal, unsafe abortions. If you ban legal abortions, you may save a fewchildren, but condemn many women to unhappy lives full of lost opportunities, and kill a few of them also.

    Laws and Reality
    Prior to the 1973 decision in Roe v. Wade, illegal abortion in the United States was common; some 700,000 to 800,000 abortions were estimated to have taken place annually in the 1950s and 1960s. Poor women, mostly young and minority, suffered the health consequences, and maternal mortality rates were high. Women of means had more options. Some were able to pay a medical professional to safely perform an illegal procedure
    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/2/gr060203.html

    What have you got against women?

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 04/20/2007 at 09:13 AM.
  13. #93  
    I think car accidents are literaly, uh, accidents.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by sblanter View Post
    I think car accidents are literaly, uh, accidents.
    And these women did not suffer contraceptive failure? An accident is an accident. Or should one not drive because there is a chance one will have an accident?

    Surur
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    #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    I think he's referring to embryonic stem cell research. Since Christians believe that life begins at conception, an embryo is considered a baby.
    This is the rockbed of the central issue. Your spiritual belief system has no merit where science operates and is irrelevant to legislation. Why your god's standard and not that of Tao or Shinto? Being that Deism is the spiritual foundation of the US's Founding Fathers, just when in US history did your standard become the one of choice?

    If christians weren't so hypocritical, they would have their armies not only bombing abortion clinics, but every hospital in the US for performing in vitro fertilization. Furthermore, by their sanctimonious standards, it would be a capital offense to "allow their seed to hit the ground".
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    So is car accidents, yet there are more than 6 million per year in the USA. Lets live in the real world please. In the real world, when you do not have legal abortions, you have illegal, unsafe abortions. If you ban legal abortions, you may save a fewchildren, but condemn many women to unhappy lives full of lost opportunities, and kill a few of them also. ...Surur
    You may be on to something. Let me test the logic with a few other relatively common behaviors:

    1. Plenty of people are using heroine, cocaine...
    2. Plenty of people steal office supplies....
    3. Plenty of cashiers sneak some money from the registers at work...
    4. Plenty of people...
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    You may be on to something. Let me test the logic with a few other relatively common behaviors:

    1. Plenty of people are using heroine, cocaine...
    2. Plenty of people steal office supplies....
    3. Plenty of cashiers sneak some money from the registers at work...
    4. Plenty of people...
    Yes, lets ruin all these people's lives, and fine then $750 000...

    There are many stupid laws, and this is one of them. How about some proportionality between the action and the consequence. Sometimes I think the actual offense religious people want to punish women for is having sex in the first place. But then did God not condemn women to suffer childbirth? It seems Christians are doing all the can to make sure women get their just desserts.

    Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you." (NASB 1995)
    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 04/20/2007 at 09:58 AM.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    ...How about some proportionality between the action and the consequence.

    Surur
    Finally, we have reached concensus.

    Actions do have consequences.

    Ergo, those who don't want to be burdended with a $750,000 liability of parenting (consequence) need only avoid becoming pregnant (action). Those who don't want to get pregnant (consequence), need only avoid placing their ovaries in a position of being exposed to sperm (action).

    Again, exceptions notwithstanding.
  19. #99  
    I knew it was coming

    Like I said earlier- I love watching these things when Shop gets involved
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Finally, we have reached concensus.

    Actions do have consequences.

    Ergo, those who don't want to be burdended with a $750,000 liability of parenting (consequence) need only avoid becoming pregnant (action). Those who don't want to get pregnant (consequence), need only avoid placing their ovaries in a position of being exposed to sperm (action).

    Again, exceptions notwithstanding.
    Only in the world you desire, shopharim. In reality the equation goes like this:

    Ergo, those who don't want to be burdened with a $750,000 liability of parenting (consequence) need only avoid becoming pregnant (action). Those who don't want to get pregnant (consequence), need only use contraception, and if that fails get an early abortion.

    Thank God for the real world.

    Surur
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