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  1. backbeat's Avatar
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    #21  
    ^ Dr. Ivor van Heerden, Director of the LSU Center for the Study of Public Health Impacts of Hurricanes and Deputy Director of the LSU Hurricane Center
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    Never heard of LSU? How about the Army Corps of Engineers? Both had produced models depicting a Cat3 hurricane's impact on the levee system, specific to New Orleans taking the primary force, which clearly showed the extent of catastrophy.
    Yes, I've heard of LSU and the Corps. The models you mention refer to the effects of something as mild as a Category 3 storm moving slowly and hitting at precisely the right point (which Katrina did not thankfully). In those circumstances, the combination of storm surge and rainfall could easily have overtopped the levee system, which was designed for a Cat3 storm but given the nature of our land has experienced significant subsidence. Katrina was not the perfect storm in this respect. It made landfall further east, and were it not for the incompetence (or negligence) of the Corps and their contractors, the flooding that took place in New Orleans would not have happened. The Corps itself has admitted that (although they claimed ignorance).
    When were these models produced? 10+ years prior to Katrina, even including models identical to the reality of how Katrina made landfall!
    We've been trying to raise awareness for longer than that. At least 15 years. We're just supposed to shut up and let the oil into the country, though.
    “I don’t think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees” is sadly farcical.
    Like many of those that only learn about this stuff from the national media, you obviously don't understand the terminology. A levee breach is a specific event which no one in fact expected. They expected them to be overtopped in certain circumstances, but the catastrophic failures which took place _after_ the worst of the storm had passed were not in those models. Willful ignorance in the interest of making political hay is no excuse for twisting the facts.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    They expected them to be overtopped in certain circumstances, but the catastrophic failures which took place _after_ the worst of the storm had passed were not in those models. Willful ignorance in the interest of making political hay is no excuse for twisting the facts.
    You're stating that no data had ever been collected indicating what pressure the levee systems could withstand, given different storm scenarios, either before or after their construction?

    The main catastrophic human failure was the absence of responsibility for the levee system's soil foundation over its long history. An overtopping caused by storm surge is a levee breach, as well as the failed seals, absent foundation, etc.

    Let the political chips fall where they may. (As if political 'hay' weren't being milked by the same administration who refused increases/cut Corps funding, specific to the NO levee system). Those responsible will be/are being held responsible. That's life in the best free society man has ever known.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    You're stating that no data had ever been collected indicating what pressure the levee systems could withstand, given different storm scenarios, either before or after their construction?
    Actually, you're stating that there were models which showed that the levees could be breached, i.e. broken, in certain scenarios and offering no tangible evidence.
    The main catastrophic human failure was the absence of responsibility for the levee system's soil foundation over its long history.
    No, the flaw was in the design. Again, the Corps has admitted such (after being pretty much forced to by people such as Dr. Ivor van Heerden).
    An overtopping caused by storm surge is a levee breach, as well as the failed seals, absent foundation, etc.
    An overtopping does not equal a breach by any definition in actual use other than by those trying to advance an anti-Bush agenda. I couldn't care less about the latter, but the former has an actual meaning to me.
    Let the political chips fall where they may. (As if political 'hay' weren't being milked by the same administration who refused increases/cut Corps funding, specific to the NO levee system).
    If that were the issue at hand, I'd agree with you. Incidentally, the funding cuts were statewide. Some who took the issue more seriously taxed themselves to complete a more effective solution.
    Those responsible will be/are being held responsible.
    This is funny. No one is being held responsible. There was just lots of posturing on 'both sides' while waiting for the next big disaster to take the focus off of things.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5. backbeat's Avatar
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    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Actually, you're stating that there were models which showed that the levees could be breached, i.e. broken, in certain scenarios and offering no tangible evidence.
    'Broken' is your term alone regarding those well-known models. This dog don't hunt.

    No, the flaw was in the design.
    Foundation is integral to the design which is what Dr. van Heerden took exception to regarding the 17th St, London Ave, and Industrial canal levees, specifically. The issue of 'I' vs 'T' design is what I believe you're primarily getting at which holds much truth.

    An overtopping does not equal a breach by any definition in actual use other than by those trying to advance an anti-Bush agenda. I couldn't care less about the latter, but the former has an actual meaning to me.
    Then you also have to disagree with Dr. van Heerden, and/or state that you believe him to have 'an anti-Bush agenda' as this was his description in his testimony to the Senate in Nov 05:

    "The hurricane protection system that all residents of New Orleans depended upon; their security from surge floods; had failed catastrophically with over twenty breachings or breaks."

    To clarify, Dr. van Heerden refers to 'levee collapse' interchangeably with 'break' or 'flood breaching' used interchangeably with 'overtopping'. His words, not mine.

    This is funny. No one is being held responsible. There was just lots of posturing on 'both sides' while waiting for the next big disaster to take the focus off of things.
    The Army Corps of Engineers has been cleared to be sued by those effected by Katrina in NO, as of Feb. this year. No one's laughing.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    'Broken' is your term alone regarding those well-known models. This dog don't hunt.
    No, breach = break is even the dictionary definition. Overtop is not equal to break.
    Then you also have to disagree with Dr. van Heerden, and/or state that you believe him to have 'an anti-Bush agenda' as this was his description in his testimony to the Senate in Nov 05:
    Link to an actual transcript?
    "The hurricane protection system that all residents of New Orleans depended upon; their security from surge floods; had failed catastrophically with over twenty breachings or breaks."
    This quote pretty much confirms what I'm saying.
    To clarify, Dr. van Heerden refers to 'levee collapse' interchangeably with 'break' or 'flood breaching' used interchangeably with 'overtopping'. His words, not mine.
    If in fact he does refer to them as the same thing (which I'm doubtful that he actually does, except within the context that they are both potential types of failure of a levee system), then he's wrong. Given that you've only quoted him disproving your position, we can probably assume that he didn't actually say what you suggest.
    The Army Corps of Engineers has been cleared to be sued by those effected by Katrina in NO, as of Feb. this year. No one's laughing.
    Except for possibly the lawyers who will be the only ones who see much money out of it.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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    #27  
    ^ Try The Google.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    ^ Try The Google.
    Are you reading from a paper transcript?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by sblanter View Post
    Source?
    I do hope you're not holding your breath.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  10. backbeat's Avatar
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    #30  
    ^ His source was provided, related to when he asked/what he was asking for, at the top of this page..

    For someone who seems to be so intimately involved, you're missing quite a few basics from your neighboring LSU. Aren't they sharing with you?

    As further perspective, I'm surprised you esteem Dr. van Heerden's opinion in any regard since he holds no civil engineering credentials, which lessens the weight of his opinion on levee design vs his opinion on NO's levee foundations, given his expertise in geology .
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by sblanter View Post
    Source?
    This was so well documented after katrina it us common knowledge. It would have been very difficult to avoid learning this fact.
  12. #32  
    I know better than that. I live here (just outside NO).
  13. #33  
    BTW, there's tons of docs on this. Anyone around here would be familiar with "boom BOOM".
  14. #34  
    Sorry, bottom line was that was I was actually looking for a link that led to something I've not read before.

    And no, I wasn't holding my breath. I knew better. Really appreciate the concern, though
  15. backbeat's Avatar
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    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by sblanter View Post
    Sorry, bottom line was that was I was actually looking for a link that led to something I've not read before.
    Then you've seen the models. Good to know.
  16. #36  
    Still no link?
  17. #37  
    I think we need to rename this thread.....I didn't realize Katrina had such a huge impact on terrorist Internet use.
  18. #38  
    No fooling. It's obvious, sport, casey, whatever.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    I think we need to rename this thread.....I didn't realize Katrina had such a huge impact on terrorist Internet use.
    Come on, Hobbes. Gore has connected Katrina to climate change. And Gen. Zinni has connected climate change to terrorism. Just connect the dots...
  20. #40  
    Well, I was going to respond with "go b**kb**t yourself", but I don't think the mods would like it.
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