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  1.    #1  
    Here's your thread. BTW, one more point. I used both systems and found the Mac much more to my liking. Have you used a mac?
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  2. #2  
    Here is point number one... but this doesn't mean this is substain enough to be the most important:

    BOX - Apple PowerMac G4 Compaq Presario 5900Z
    Processor - Motorola G4 AMD Athlon
    Speed - 500 MHz 850 MHz
    RAM Type - SDRAM SDRAM
    RAM Amt - 256MB 256MB
    HD Type - Ultra ATA Ultra DMA
    HD Size - 27GB 30GB
    HD RPM - 7200 7200
    Video Card - Rage 128 Pro NVIDIA GeForce 256
    VRAM - 16MB 32MB
    CD/DVD - DVD-RAM DVD-ROM, CD-RW
    Price - $3399 $2747

    close to 600 dollars

    I actually use both machines since I double as a Wireless developer and a graphic artists. I haven't touched the G4 in months since it just doesn't suit my liking. But, this is what it comes down to... a PERSONAL computer, is just that, a PERSONAL computer. In no way have I yet to say that Mac's suck overall and they are worth no use, etc...... I have however tried to debunk their superiority in the marketplace. They aren't superior. Prices, speed, upgradability, these categories more often than not have pointed to PC. That is why PC has more of a market share. That is ALSO why PC has more developers, shareware, freeware, commercial... hands down, PC wins. Therefore joshieca missed my point. I have actually deleted current posts in that article because I didn't want to draw that much attention to it.

    Let me gather more thoughts, while you respond and I will get back to you will a more clear, concise letter.
    Last edited by timmins; 04/16/2001 at 11:57 AM.
  3.    #3  
    But that's not my example. You complained my argument against you wasn't taking your example into consideration. Fine. I'll agree that you can rarely go wrong building your own system (with regards to hardware), but I'd like to see a price comparison between an iMac and a Gateway, Dell, Compaq, etc. I want the mic and speakers included .
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  4.    #4  
    BTW, have you used a mac? Your points won't be invalidated, but it would help to see where you're coming from.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  5. #5  
    I just cut and pasted two machines... both have speakers and a mic.
  6. #6  
    ****...you just had to encourage this discussion, didn't you?

    I'm a die-hard Mac user, myself, but I have to side with timmins. You can get a windows system pieced together for a LOT less than a Mac system.

    If you want complete 'upgradability' (important to some users) you need to build-you-own, or go with a high-end Dell or the like. Macs, Gateways, Consumer-end Dells...none of these machines are really meant to by upgraded beyond adding a few cards or a new drive here and there.

    ****, I agree with a lot of what you say, but there are some errors that should be corrected (the more facts you have, the better arguments you can make in the future).

    Last I checked Windows didn't include text and voice recognition software.
    What is text recognition software? OCR? My Mac didn't come with that. As for voice recognition, the built-in VR of OS9 is really more of a toy than true, full-fledged voice recognition.

    I have yet to see a Windows machine with an included mic.
    Most Gateways come with them. None of the new Macs come with them.

    I haven't seen one with Harmon Kardon speakers, either. Harmon Kardon made the speakers I bought for my stereo, and I have to admit, when I found out they were included with my mac, I was impressed.
    True. I like my speakers.

    My mac does everything I need it to do at a cheaper cost than a similarly equipped win machine.
    Good. But that's not always true.

    It all comes down to what works for the individual. Sometimes a Mac is best, sometimes a Wintel machine is best, sometimes a linux machine is best, etc...
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  7.    #7  
    Et tu, Brute?
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  8. #8  
    That is why PC has more of a market share. That is ALSO why PC has more developers, shareware, freeware, commercial... hands down, PC wins.
    Market share rarely has anything to do with quality.

    As for software, yes there is much more out there for Windows, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. Of all the applications I use day in-day out, there are maybe 2 that I can only use on the PC and 2 that I can only use on the Mac. The rest are all cross-platform or have cross-platform alternatives.

    As Timmins alluded to, you can NOT say one platform is better than the other. This is the old chevy vs. ford debate.

    That said, there ARE tangible elements of a computing platform that one can compare: price, quality, upgradability, interface, architecture, support, reliability, speed, etc.

    Broad 'my whatever is better than your whatever' statements are meaningless in that they merely are reflections of a person's opinion.

    I always enjoy a good debate...even a good 'ol Mav Vs. PC debate, but the arguments need to be based in fact, not opinion, for the debate to be of any value.

    IMHO, of course
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  9.    #9  
    Originally posted by homer
    ****...you just had to encourage this discussion, didn't you?
    Yep. I'm sorry. This is fun.

    I'm a die-hard Mac user, myself, but I have to side with timmins. You can get a windows system pieced together for a LOT less than a Mac system.
    But that's just it. The system would be pieced together. I can hardly call my mac pieced together.

    If you want complete 'upgradability' (important to some users) you need to build-you-own, or go with a high-end Dell or the like. Macs, Gateways, Consumer-end Dells...none of these machines are really meant to by upgraded beyond adding a few cards or a new drive here and there.

    ****, I agree with a lot of what you say, but there are some errors that should be corrected (the more facts you have, the better arguments you can make in the future).
    Man, do I love arguing. Thanks homer.

    What is text recognition software? OCR? My Mac didn't come with that. As for voice recognition, the built-in VR of OS9 is really more of a toy than true, full-fledged voice recognition.
    No, the ability to read my bedtime story to me.

    Most Gateways come with them. None of the new Macs come with them.
    Did they remove them from the iMac line? That's where I think Apple is staying the most competitive with regards to price. Now if they'd only include more RAM...

    True. I like my speakers.
    Nothing better, AFAIC.



    Good. But that's not always true.

    It all comes down to what works for the individual. Sometimes a Mac is best, sometimes a Wintel machine is best, sometimes a linux machine is best, etc...
    Yes. I was waiting for timmins to show me how a win machine would've suited my needs better.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  10. #10  
    In most cases, if price is the decision-maker, a PC will be cheaper than a Mac when purchasing a new machine. I don't think that it should be the deciding factor, as there are other things to consider like TCO (support costs, software costs, etc). I hope to get my parents using a Mac so I don't have to help them with something on their PC everytime I visit them.

    I recently purchased a PowerBook G4 400. I compared it with the Sony Vaio, and the difference in price was almost negligible when similarly configured. My TiBook is the most trouble-free laptop I have ever used, even with the new OS X on it. My wife has a Compaq Notebook 100 and it is always giving her some type of problem.

    Both Macs and PCs have their merits. Buy what suits your interests.
    James Hromadka, TreoCentral Editor
    Houston - EST. 1836
  11. #11  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    {...} I have yet to see a Windows machine with an included mic.
    You haven't been looking very hard obviously. Even my cheapo Quantex system purchased in '96 came with a mic.

    I haven't seen one with Harmon Kardon speakers, either.
    Again, you're not looking very hard. Although Altec Lansings (not that shabby either) are a bit more common, Harmon Kardon and Boston Acoustics (although their PC stuff isn't near the level of their car stuff) aren't that hard to find with PCs.

    Harmon Kardon made the speakers I bought for my stereo, and I have to admit, when I found out they were included with my mac, I was impressed.
    Nah...if they'd included Klipsch, that would have been worthy, but Harmon Kardon stuff is getting pretty common these days.

    Oh sure, I can make a windows machine do all that, but at an extra cost.
    Other than the voice/text stuff, it will more than likely be cheaper for a PC with the same level of stuff. Feel free to post a configuration, though, and we'll see how they compare.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  12.    #12  
    Originally posted by Toby
    ...Nah...if they'd included Klipsch, that would have been worthy, but Harmon Kardon stuff is getting pretty common these days...
    Can you point to a link? I haven't heard of Klipsch. Living in the boonies is getting to be a pain.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  13.    #13  
    Originally posted by Toby
    You haven't been looking very hard obviously. Even my cheapo Quantex system purchased in '96 came with a mic.
    You're right. I only looked as far as I was able to purchase (not that far).
    Again, you're not looking very hard. Although Altec Lansings (not that shabby either) are a bit more common, Harmon Kardon and Boston Acoustics (although their PC stuff isn't near the level of their car stuff) aren't that hard to find with PCs.
    Included? I know they make pc speakers, but I haven't seen many include them with a system. Again, I only looked as far as my pocketbook.

    Other than the voice/text stuff, it will more than likely be cheaper for a PC with the same level of stuff. Feel free to post a configuration, though, and we'll see how they compare.
    The only configuration I'd post that would compare similar quality componets would be from a self-built system. I agree that home-built are the cheapest option. I think Apple does a good job including high quality at their prices (with regard to the iMac).
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  14. #14  
    all I can say is... I have removed update notification, I haven't read a post since my last one and wish that this never happened.
  15. #15  
    Macintouch usually posts a side-by-side comparison of new Mac models vs PC equivalents whenever a new model comes out. The PC usually wins the initial purchase-price war.

    That said, you really can't compare them, as the systems, while similar, typically have a lot of little differences (ie, 100baseT vs. Gigabit Ethernet, Motorola vs. Intel vs. AMD, Optical mouse vs. ball mouse, etc...) that are hard to accurately compare in terms of a total system cost.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  16.    #16  
    Originally posted by timmins
    all I can say is... I have removed update notification, I haven't read a post since my last one and wish that this never happened.
    That's too bad. It's good getting different perspectives on things.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  17.    #17  
    Originally posted by homer
    Macintouch usually posts a side-by-side comparison of new Mac models vs PC equivalents whenever a new model comes out. The PC usually wins the initial purchase-price war.

    That said, you really can't compare them, as the systems, while similar, typically have a lot of little differences (ie, 100baseT vs. Gigabit Ethernet, Motorola vs. Intel vs. AMD, Optical mouse vs. ball mouse, etc...) that are hard to accurately compare in terms of a total system cost.
    So what should one base a decision on? You can't compare the tangibles, what's left? Our furnace is out right now, so I'm posting on my mom's machine (cue younger sisters joke), and I can say that using this thing is a pain. It's slow, convoluted, and I don't like it. It looks good on paper, but it's much more....hostile than my mac.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  18. #18  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    You're right. I only looked as far as I was able to purchase (not that far).
    Included? I know they make pc speakers, but I haven't seen many include them with a system. Again, I only looked as far as my pocketbook.
    Well, there's a pretty wide range of prices WRT PC hardware. You can get a Dell system for as low as $650-$700 bucks with the basic HK speakers. Granted, this isn't the system most PC users would go for since there are some things (like >=17" monitors) which PC users have become accustomed to, but a beginners PC system can be very cheap (almost free in some cases with those MSN/AOL type rebate offers).

    The only configuration I'd post that would compare similar quality componets would be from a self-built system. I agree that home-built are the cheapest option. I think Apple does a good job including high quality at their prices (with regard to the iMac).
    I'm not even talking about self-built. I'm talking about something that one can configure/price from a webpage as being the most work that one would have to do. Now, with an iMac, it's a bit difficult to do a direct compare since the integration of components is hard to come by in the PC world, but I'd be surprised if the old fashioned PC/monitor combo couldn't beat the iMac on a price/comparable performance ratio. The main selling point for the Mac has never been price. It's always been end-user experience. That, however, is something which can't really be compared.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  19. #19  
    So what should one base a decision on? You can't compare the tangibles, what's left?
    One should base a decision on personal preference. And that should consist of an overall user experience, not specific details.

    It's like buying a car.

    Car X may have more horsepower, a larger user-base, and better mileage, but, dammit, I REALLY prefer car Y because of the sun-roof. So, I should get car Y.

    It's all subjective tastes.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  20.    #20  
    Originally posted by Toby
    I'm not even talking about self-built. I'm talking about something that one can configure/price from a webpage as being the most work that one would have to do. Now, with an iMac, it's a bit difficult to do a direct compare since the integration of components is hard to come by in the PC world, but I'd be surprised if the old fashioned PC/monitor combo couldn't beat the iMac on a price/comparable performance ratio. The main selling point for the Mac has never been price. It's always been end-user experience. That, however, is something which can't really be compared.
    I see. Nothing like making your product's main selling point something that can't be proven false. I'm rather impressed with Apple. "Our computers cost more because you'll like it when you buy it." LOL!
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
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