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  1.    #1  
    Since when has the public started trusting the govt. to this extent?
    --
    Aloke
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  2. #2  
    I agree with you Aprasad. I shudder to think what will go wrong next. Its sad for our country. At any rate, here is a little humor. Do these conversations sound familiar?
  3. #3  
    As time has gone on Ive gained a lot of perspective, and I realized its our expectations which are flawed, not the people governing us. They are acting like they have always acted through the ages, working to preserve their own power. We are the ones foolishly expecting due process, rule of law, fairness and equality. All of these are just artificial constructs, and the simple fact is that it has always been might which makes right.

    Once I've realized that these things do not upset me much anymore. I've just decided to do the best to keep my nose clean, and not to draw the attention of the powers that me towards me, as, despite what idealists may think, there is really no limit to what the rulers can do to you these days. Anyone for indefinite detention without trial or even knowing the charges against you, being deported to 3rd party countries to be tortured, innocent people being shot in the head 7 times by anti-terror squads?

    Lower your expectations too, and you too will never be disappointed.

    Surur
  4. #4  
    Surur may have seasoned his answer with sarcasm but i think his basic point is right -- what to expect from those in authority. Human nature is immutable. The Inquisition was not a one-time abberation.

    That being said (and I do think the Patriot Act -- what a cynical use of acronyms -- gave the gubmint far roo much power.

    That being said, the analysis I read of the FBI's activities said that in fact the violations were not in the area of systematic bad behavior (that will come in time) but in recordkeeping and paperwork.
  5.    #5  
    Politicians from both parties, Gonzales, and the FBI director seem more upset about this (they are all over the newsmedia denouncing this) than the people here....
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  6. #6  
    It's politics. The elected officials have to appear outraged, and the appointees can't play it down for fear of looking incompetent. But when you look at the details, it's hardly scandalous. They found a lot of problems, and they're fixing them.
  7. #7  
    Im not surprised. Con law scholars were saying from the get go that the Patriot Act went to far.

    Given the political climate (and the fact that Congress gave up its oversight authority) no one should be surprised.
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  8. #8  
    We will be working for decades to undo what this administration has wrought.
  9.    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    It's politics. The elected officials have to appear outraged, and the appointees can't play it down for fear of looking incompetent. But when you look at the details, it's hardly scandalous. They found a lot of problems, and they're fixing them.
    So they tell us.

    Congress has to exert more oversight. Thank goodness for divided govt. (Executive and Legislative branches controlled by different parties..)
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tastypeppers View Post
    Surur may have seasoned his answer with sarcasm but i think his basic point is right -- what to expect from those in authority. Human nature is immutable. The Inquisition was not a one-time abberation.

    That being said (and I do think the Patriot Act -- what a cynical use of acronyms -- gave the gubmint far roo much power.

    That being said, the analysis I read of the FBI's activities said that in fact the violations were not in the area of systematic bad behavior (that will come in time) but in recordkeeping and paperwork.
    I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe this "bad recordkeeping" is fortuitous in that, because of it, controlls will be tightened before any more serious violations occur.
  11. #11  
    While Bush is saying "it wont happen again" I have zero reassurance by that statement. I agree with Tastypeppers, the Patriot Act needs revision and this is a great time to do it. Its not a matter of if, but a matter of how much, which will be debated in Congress.
  12. #12  
    I was actually being serious, not sarcastic. The very fact that we lose our 'freedoms' when times get tough (e.g. th e Patriot Act and other similar legislation worldwide) tells us that our freedoms were just conviences born of a prosperous rich civilization, versus inherent human rights. When times get tough we get afraid, and very vicious in defending our security, usually at the expense of our so-called freedoms. This tells us exactly how much value we place on such. Its very few who will actually answer life ahead of liberty. I believe conservatives understand this implicitly, while liberals are too idealisitc for their own good.

    Surur
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad View Post
    So they tell us.

    Congress has to exert more oversight. Thank goodness for divided govt. (Executive and Legislative branches controlled by different parties..)
    Why this impulsive need for more oversight? It was a Justice Department audit that identified the problems at the FBI, not a Democratic Congress.

    Another word for oversight is bureaucracy, and as determined by the 9/11 Commission, bureaucracy kills.
  14.    #14  
    Dems have been chairing the committees for just a couple of months. Give them time.
    Split govt. is better. If Dems had Congress and White House, they too will get sloppy and full of hubris.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    Why this impulsive need for more oversight? It was a Justice Department audit that identified the problems at the FBI, not a Democratic Congress.
    The FBI audit was performed as required by Congress, over the objections of the Bush administration.
    http://www.ktvu.com/news/11212933/detail.html
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    The FBI audit was performed as required by Congress, over the objections of the Bush administration.
    http://www.ktvu.com/news/11212933/detail.html
    It was part of the Patriot Act (passed by a Republican Congress). The Justice Department was required under the Patriot Act to audit itself, and it did. The fact that they found problems indicates that the oversight in place is working. If the audit missed any problems, it would indicate inadequate oversight. But there's no indication yet that they missed anything.
  17.    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    If the audit missed any problems, it would indicate inadequate oversight. But there's no indication yet that they missed anything.
    How will we know if they missed anything if the (self)-audit missed it in the first place?

    Like I said in my OP: ".. has the public started trusting the govt. to this extent?"
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  18. #18  
    The Bush administration opposed this FBI audit and I do not trust them when they say don't worry everything will be taken care of. I think it is reasonable for congress to investigate this matter very carefully.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad View Post
    How will we know if they missed anything if the (self)-audit missed it in the first place?

    Like I said in my OP: ".. has the public started trusting the govt. to this extent?"
    Once again, if they missed something, that would indicate inadequate oversight. You're arguing for more oversight without any evidence other than your distrust.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I think it is reasonable for congress to investigate this matter very carefully.
    Of course it is.
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