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  1. vw2002's Avatar
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       #21  
    Yep. Our government is paving the way for illegals so that they can overpopulate the US to the point where American CITIZENS become the new minority.

    amazing. no solution in sight either.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002 View Post
    no solution in sight either.
    Solution is simple. Firmly enforce the existing laws regardign employing illegal aliens. No work--> no illegal immigrants.
  3. #23  
    New Center Report: Foreign Guestworkers Routinely Exploited by U.S. Employers

    Excerpts:

    The 48-page report, based on interviews with thousands of guestworkers and dozens of legal cases, describes the systematic abuse of workers under what is known as the H-2 system administered by the U.S. Department of Labor. The program was created in 1943 to allow the sugar cane industry to bring in temporary workers and was revised by Congress in 1986 to include non-agricultural workers.

    Employers in 2005 "imported" more than 121,000 temporary H-2 guestworkers — 32,000 H-2A workers for agricultural work and 89,000 H-2B workers for jobs in forestry, seafood processing, landscaping, construction and other non-agricultural industries.

    ...

    The most fundamental problem with the H-2 system is that employers hold all the cards. They decide which workers can come to the United States and which cannot. They decide whether a worker can stay in this country. They usually decide where and under what conditions workers live and how they travel.

    Guestworkers are typically powerless to enforce their rights. "If guestworkers complain about abuses, they face deportation, blacklisting or other retaliation," the report says.

    "Guestworkers don't enjoy the most basic protections of a free labor market — the ability to change jobs if they are cheated or abused by their employer," Bauer said.


    (The above link goes to a news release which links to the entier report)
  4. vw2002's Avatar
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       #24  
    I completely agree. Hazelton, Pa is the shining example of that approach. It's probably the best way this crisis is to be handled.

    If we don't employ them as illegals, they won't want to come here as illegals. period.

    Fine any business which does hire them, and fine them substantially.

    As you've said, enforce this law in every state without exception, and I too would think the problem would be dramatically reduced.

    The only things standing in our way now are.... well....


    the damned politicians..
    I gotta have more cowbell
  5. vw2002's Avatar
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       #25  
    As far as the post regarding guest workers being abused, I'll have to read into that a bit more later.. Its getting late.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Solution is simple. Firmly enforce the existing laws regardign employing illegal aliens. No work--> no illegal immigrants.
    Da...I FULLY agree with you!!

    I heard any interview with Romney (Rep Presidential hopeful) the other day. He was asked about how he would handle illegal immigration. He had two main points

    1) Secure the Border

    2) Take away the incentive to work here and they won't come. Here is how he proposed this:
    • Right now it is NOT legally required that businesses verify citizenship. If an employee hands them an I-9 form, that's it. Change it so employers MUST cross reference SS# with national database. This would include biometrics and warnings if known used illegal immigrant used SS# (this makes sense since my Bro-inlaw in Texas knows of at least 3 trailers with 5-8 unrelated people each using the same SS#).
    • If not citizen, they MUST have tamper proof card linked to national database to be employeed with some sort of guest worker program.
    • HUGE fines for businesses that do not follow these steps.
    • Actual enforcement of these measures.

    I probably got some of the details wrong, but at least got the jest of it. Either way, I remember really liking what he was laying out.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 03/20/2007 at 12:02 PM.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    This is what supports illegal immigration. Business owners who want to return to the labor conditions of the 1910s.
    Wide spread Non-enforcement of the immigration laws and wide spread non-enforcement to employers create a prime breeding ground for an underworld like this.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    However, certainly SF police are required to enforce the law which is, no license then you get the charge or tix whichever it may be.

    Wow! 1 billion! I'd love to see a source on that. My understanding is that misdemeanor crimes by illegals are met with deportation.

    I'd also love to see a source on the ACLU statement.
    Here are some of the costs of illegal immigrants that posted awhile ago with sources. They may have updated info now, but I have little doubt the numbers have gone down:

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I am in total agreement with both NRG and BARYE!

    I always felt the turn of Undocumented Immigrant was a term to soften the reality of their illegal actions from crossing the border and living her outside of the system and against every immigration law on the books. If I stole a stereo system would I be thief or simply a Undocumented Stereo Owner with the legal rights to own the stereo if I got it home without getting caught? Would my actions be accountable to the law?

    I am totally for immigration, but through the due process for several reasons (most of which have already been stated):

    >> National Security, do I really need to go into details on this one? In fact for the this ONE reason alone, I feel this law is valid and would get my vote.

    >>Health Care. We pay for their care out of our taxes, driving further due to hospitals closing that can’t afford fronting the money for illegal health care, high insurance rates, etc...

    FAIR estimates "there are currently between 287,000 and 363,000 children born to illegal aliens each year. In 1994, California paid for 74,987 deliveries to illegal alien mothers, at a total cost of $215.2 million (an average of $2,842 per delivery). Illegal alien mothers accounted for 36 percent of all Medi-Cal funded births in California that year."

    In a recent year in Colorado, the state's emergency Medicaid program paid an estimated $30 million in hospital and physician delivery costs for about 6,000 illegal immigrant mothers - average of $5,000 per baby. Those 6,000 births to illegal aliens represent 40% of the births paid for by Medicaid in Colorado. Those 6,000 babies immediately became U.S. citizens and qualified for full Medicaid services, with a cost yet to be tabulated.

    The federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) mandates that U.S. hospitals with emergency-room services must treat anyone who requires care, including illegal aliens. Medical service for Americans in affected communities is being severely damaged as hospitals absorb more than $200 million in unreimbursed costs. Some emergency rooms have shut down because they cannot afford to stay open. Local tax-paying Americans are either denied medical care or have to wait in long lines for service as the illegals flood the facilities. In California, the losses are calculated to be about $79 million, with $74 million in Texas, $31 million in Arizona, and $6 million in New Mexico.
    http://www.theamericanresistance.com...alth_care.html

    An estimated one-third to one-half illegal aliens work off the books. It costs $200 million to provide for emergency health care for illegal aliens in the Border States annually. California with over three million illegals paid $79 million, BUT four of their major LA hospitals bankrupted and shut their doors in 2004. Texas with 1.5 million illegal aliens paid $74 million in hospital care. Who is Texas? You, the taxpayer, that’s who! Because you, in your state, pay commensurate medical care according to your illegal alien population. Georgia ran a $63 million deficit for 64,000 unpaid doctor visits to their Grady Health Care system in 2002. In the same year, Georgia taxpayers paid $27 million for 11,188 anchor baby hospital births. Georgia taxpayers paid a whopping $242 million for educating illegal alien kids in 2003. What is it in your state?
    http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty2.htm
    >> Violent Crimes. Across the nation, it averages that 30% of all local and federal prisoners are illegal immigrants, many of which are in for violent crimes, i.e. murder, physical assault, rape, etc....

    Police commanders may not want to discuss, much less respond to, the illegal-alien crisis, but its magnitude for law enforcement is startling. Some examples:

    • In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

    • A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

    • The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

    ................

    in 2000, for example, nearly 30 percent of federal prisoners were foreign-born. The agency couldn’t find enough pro bono attorneys to represent such an army of criminal aliens (who have extensive due-process rights in contesting deportation) and so would have to request delay after delay. Or enough immigration judges would not be available. In 1997, the INS simply had no record of a whopping 36 percent of foreign-born inmates who had been released from federal and four state prisons without any review of their deportability. They included 1,198 aggravated felons, 80 of whom were soon re-arrested for new crimes.
    http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_...gal_alien.html

    When an alien criminal gets caught for rape, murder or drug distribution, you pay $1.6 billion annually in prison costs to house, feed and clothe those filling 30 percent of our federal and state prisons
    >> Education.

    While these massive budget deficits cannot be attributed to any single source, the enormous impact of large-scale illegal immigration cannot be ignored. The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states nearly $12 billion annually, and when the children born here to illegal aliens are added, the costs more than double to $28.6 billion.

    .................

    In Texas, the $3.9 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants could:

    Cover more than the $2.3 billion shortfall identified by the Texas Federation for Teachers for such things as textbooks and pension contributions.
    Make Texas’ salaries for teachers more competitive by national standards, thereby reducing costly attrition, and recruit the 5,000 new teachers needed each year.

    In California, the $7.7 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants—nearly 13% of the overall 2004–5 education budget—could: ........

    In New York, the $3.1 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants could: ..........

    In Illinois, the $2 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants could: .................

    ....................

    http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?nam...rticle&sid=469

    These are just a few areas of challenges we face with illegal immigrants.......PLEASE NOTE I am talking about ALL ILLEGAL Immigrants, not just from Mexico. But due our porous border, statistically a vast majority are from there. This is not racist, it is not discrimination. It is simply bringing those who want to be in our country and those who want to enjoy the opportunities our country provides accountable to our country and actually a legal part of supporting the systems and services that all Americans have an opportunity to take advantage of, ie. health care, education, transportation, law enforcement, etc...
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 03/20/2007 at 11:53 AM.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Look, I don't disagree with your objection to the lack of immigration enforcement. I think sinply pointing out the fact that illegal immigrant labor is anti-capitalist should be enough.
    Again I agree with you.....on the flip side, I see others that make the argument that we must encourage illegal immigrants because they help us economically in our economy (but those who make this argument rarely take into account the cost on our social services posted above against whatever benefits are provided). There is no doubt that we each benefit in varying degrees from illegal workers, but does it make it right? We would also benefit with lower costs if companies did not have to worry about obeying the laws to conserve and protect the environment. If they did not have worry about product safety issues and gain gov approval if needed. We could be paying less if we did not have provide extra security against thieves and terrorists. We would have cheaper products if companies did not have to pay taxes (which some have been found guilty of when paying illegals under the table).

    The point is there are a lot things that we would all benefit from if companies either broke the law or disregarded the safety of the public or their customers. The question might be, why is breaking the illegal immigrant law different than any other national security law they have to abide by? Should immigration laws be exempt from prosecution if violated because it benefits the customer? If so, what other laws then can we ignore to lower the price of products and services for the American consumer?
  10. #30  
    Not only are the illegals being abused by ruthless employers here, but there is no way their own countries will ever, ever, ever reform if they are allowed to just push people here. Despite their passion for their own country and culture (thus the reluctance to learn English, the waving of Mexican or other flags), they are actually very unpatriotic of their own country's dillemas. They need to stay there and fight, fight, fight to absolutely make their own leaders reform the corruption in their own government. (We have enough corruption here-admittedly.)

    Only when they stand up and force their own governrments (it's not just Mexico, by the way) to bring about economic development and prosperity in their own borders will they be able to make a decent living there.

    There is no reson why many of these countries can't have a thriving economy- is there? If they force their governments to deliver it to them. It's pretty much the same dirt south of the Rio Grande as north of it, so why should they be so poor there that even the poor in the US look like kings to them?

    The US is the safety valve for these countries, so pushing people here avoids bloody revolution there where the big-wigs can be safe in their corruption, and not have to change. I think this may be the saddest part of the illegal alien problem, the failure to force these countries to improve.

    We need to lock-up every illegal (maybe), and the employers who aid and abet them (definately).

    Even if McDonalds can afford the best lawyers, and Joe's Landscaping can't, both need to be on-notice that such behavior will not be tolerated. We need to make it eaisier for employers to check status, not threaten them with lawsuits if they ask about that status.

    We need to reward border patrol agents, not handcuff them.
    While we're at it, free bountyhunter Duane "Dog" Chapman (no relation).
    If Mexico doesn't like it, they should be told to... (GRAPHIC LANGUAGE SELF_REMOVED).

    I really, really like GWB, and would not have wanted Gore or Kerry in power at all... but I am very concerned about his (both parties, actually) reluctance to secure the border. I am seriously thinking that someone in Mexico must have racy photos of these politicians in their wild college days (remember that Texas is close to Mexico, and college boys will tend to take a road trip south to sow their wild oats). If this conspiracy theory is rediculous, then please explain to me what possible explanation can be made for why they are consistently selling this country down the toilet?...

    No explanation? Maybe there's something to these crazy theorys.

    Removing self off of soap-box now...
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  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Again I agree with you.....on the flip side, I see others that make the argument that we must encourage illegal immigrants because they help us economically in our economy (but those who make this argument rarely take into account the cost on our social services posted above against whatever benefits are provided). There is no doubt that we each benefit in varying degrees from illegal workers, but does it make it right? We would also benefit with lower costs if companies did not have to worry about obeying the laws to conserve and protect the environment. If they did not have worry about product safety issues and gain gov approval if needed. We could be paying less if we did not have provide extra security against thieves and terrorists. We would have cheaper products if companies did not have to pay taxes (which some have been found guilty of when paying illegals under the table).

    The point is there are a lot things that we would all benefit from if companies either broke the law or disregarded the safety of the public or their customers. The question might be, why is breaking the illegal immigrant law different than any other national security law they have to abide by? Should immigration laws be exempt from prosecution if violated because it benefits the customer? If so, what other laws then can we ignore to lower the price of products and services for the American consumer?
    No, the statement that illegal labor helps us economically is just another way to say, businesses can lower the costs of their labor by flooding the market with cheap available labor which is completely anti-free-market. In a hot economy, labor increases in demand thus wages go up. However too many business owners don't want to play by this rule until the law of supply and demand applies to their product.
  12. #32  
    Here is an interesting article about the lengths Illegal Aliens are going to and that the consequences could be devastating to any random individual American family.....

    Illegal Workers Now Using Stolen American Identities
    Of 1,282 illegal immigrants detained in the Swift raids, the majority were charged with civil immigration violations and quickly deported. But federal prosecutors brought identity-theft charges against 148 of the workers.....Matthew C. Allen, the senior investigations official at Immigration and Custom Enforcement, said that 326 Americans had reported financial complications and tax liabilities from having their identities used at Swift. "The victims have suffered very real consequences," Mr. Allen said.

    ......the workers had Social Security contributions and other taxes deducted from their paychecks, but they did not file tax returns. The Social Security taxes accumulated in the accounts of the real owners.

    Traffickers have devised several ways to meet the demand for authentic documents. Along the Mexican border, immigration officials said, muggers and pickpockets have learned that selling stolen documents to black market vendors can be less risky than a shopping spree with a stolen credit card.

    -----------

    Traffickers apparently sold and resold the documents in several places. Many of the identities found in Marshalltown, including Ms. Blanco's, had also been used by immigrant workers in Green Forest, Ark., and Milwaukee, Wis. Neither Ms. Nuñez nor Ms. Blanco has ever been to either place, they said.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/22/us...&partner=MYWAY
    I know this is hardly scientific, but let's see....if we take the Swift raid a representation of the percentage of Illegal Aliens who are using stolen identities it would be 11.5%. There is estimated to be anywhere from 10-20 million Illegal Aliens in the US right now. That would mean that there are anywhere from 1,150,000 to 2,300,000 Americans as victims of stolen identities from Illegal Aliens. Now, I have no idea if it is anywhere near that amount, but if unchecked I could see this trend growing into that very easily.

    Could you imagine getting your income tax statements and finding that you owe taxes on an additional $30,000 for each of the other 4 illegal aliens using your identity for a total of $120,000 you did not personally earn? Or that each one of the four using your ID have 3 credit cards in your name (12 in total) that will count against earnings / debt ratio and all late payments against your credit, etc...? This is a very scary thing that could effect anyone at random in the US.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 03/24/2007 at 07:45 PM.
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