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  1.    #1  
    This is a long article from The New Yorker by Sy Hersh. Good reading..

    http://www.newyorker.com/printables/...5fa_fact_hersh
    --
    Aloke
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  2. #2  
    I don't know that it's that much more of a mess than it ever was. But we are hearing more about it than ever before.
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    I don't know that it's that much more of a mess than it ever was. But we are hearing more about it than ever before.
    Before you felt you had to make GWB president, there weren't 3000 plus (and counting) Americans killed in the region.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    Before you felt you had to make GWB president, there weren't 3000 plus (and counting) Americans killed in the region.
    No sir, you're absolutely correct. That happened in New York City.
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    No sir, you're absolutely correct. That happened in New York City.
    Funny, I thought that happened under Bush's watch too...

    Surur
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    No sir, you're absolutely correct. That happened in New York City.
    1. There were less than 3000 people killed in the 9/11 attacks
    2. It happened after Bush was elected
    3. It had NOTHING to do with Iraq (somehow you seem to cling to that thought, even though proven wrong. Presumably you know there is no link, but you still mix it up or at least try to mix it up).
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    1. There were less than 3000 people killed in the 9/11 attacks
    2. It happened after Bush was elected
    3. It had NOTHING to do with Iraq (somehow you seem to cling to that thought, even though proven wrong. Presumably you know there is no link, but you still mix it up or at least try to mix it up).
    1. Oh brother. Okay, 2,973 with at least 24 still unaccounted for. Seems absurd to even argue that point but, okay.
    2. Irrelevant to the point.
    3. I made no attempt to confuse the two. As long as we're arguing minutia: the original post was about the Middle East, your post regarded "the region". However, the hostilities didn't begin with Bush or even in the last few decades and this battle won't be won by quick retaliatory strikes. To the Bush administration, and I do tend to agree, changing Iraq can be pivotal to changing "the region" and ensuring no more attacks on American soil. But, if fighting AQ is all you're concerned about, rest assured that we are fighting AQ in Iraq. I won't apologize for believing it's better to fight them there than here.
  8. #8  
    YAIWM. Yet another Iraq war thread. Why did I get myself into the middle of this again?
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    To the Bush administration, and I do tend to agree, changing Iraq can be pivotal to changing "the region" and ensuring no more attacks on American soil.
    Indeed Iraq has been changed. It is a much greater source of instability now than it was prior to GWB's war.

    Tell me again: how can the chaos in Iraq prevent attacks like 9/11, which was planned and executed almost exclusively by Saudis?

    Will you ever admit GWB was an error, or will you continue to look for excuses?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    I don't know that it's that much more of a mess than it ever was. But we are hearing more about it than ever before.
    It's a "work in progress": it gets messier and messier all the time
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Funny, I thought that happened under Bush's watch too...
    But can he tell time?...
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    Indeed Iraq has been changed. It is a much greater source of instability now than it was prior to GWB's war.

    Tell me again: how can the chaos in Iraq prevent attacks like 9/11, which was planned and executed almost exclusively by Saudis?

    Will you ever admit GWB was an error, or will you continue to look for excuses?
    1. Leading question. Let me rephrase: How can finishing the job in Iraq prevent attacks like 9/11? By creating a stable country that’s more willing to have productive rather than hostile relations with its neighbors and that doesn’t knowingly harbor and/or fund terrorists (no, not just AQ).
    2. I’ve called out Bush errors several times on this board. For example, I think he’s done a horrendous job on the issue of border control and relations with Mexico. Are you willing to admit that he’s done anything right?
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    By creating a stable country that’s more willing to have productive rather than hostile relations with its neighbors and that doesn’t knowingly harbor and/or fund terrorists (no, not just AQ).
    The war on Iraq actually destabilized things. A newly stable pacified Iraq would be a tribute to America in the middle east. Do you really think this would be allowed to stand? There is nothing America could do to stabilize Iraq now.

    Its much easier to destroy than to build.

    Surur
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    How can finishing the job in Iraq prevent attacks like 9/11? By creating a stable country that’s more willing to have productive rather than hostile relations with its neighbors and that doesn’t knowingly harbor and/or fund terrorists (no, not just AQ).
    Oh, i get it now. Instead of staying in Afghanistan and dealing with that mess, we invade and occupy Iraq for the next decade until it's a stable democracy and then it will influence Afghanistan's Taliban to embrace democracy and equal rights.

    Brilliant and effective use of resources.

  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Oh, i get it now. Instead of staying in Afghanistan and dealing with that mess, we invade and occupy Iraq for the next decade until it's a stable democracy and then it will influence Afghanistan's Taliban to embrace democracy and equal rights.

    Brilliant and effective use of resources.

    Yeah, because we've left Afghanistan, right?
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    Yeah, because we've left Afghanistan, right?
    Yea, left it unfinished. Incomplete. An increasing breeding ground for Al Queda and the Taliban.

    Tell me something, those of you that bought this neocon Iraq adventure plan, why couldn't Afghanistan been the gleaming jewel of a Jeffersonian Democracy in the Middle East. Why not spend over 3000 U.S. lives and $359,000,000,000.00 there to create an "example nation" for the Middle East?

    Jebus! We could have bribed every citizen of Afghanistan up to $12,000 each to accept democracy and saved the 3000 American lives not to mention the nearly 100,000 Iraqi lives.
  17. #17  
    Well, hell, if money's all we need let's just give every adult in third world $20 a month to like us.
  18. #18  
    I mean, as long as we're throwing out silly, overly simplistic ideas.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    I mean, as long as we're throwing out silly, overly simplistic ideas.
    Ok, I will. "Hey! All we have to do is overthrow the Bathist regime in Iraq and start an American-style democracy to democrotize the entire Middle East. We'll be welcomed as Liberators and the Iraqi people will throw us flowers."

    You know, just while we're talking about silly, overly simplistic ideas.

    BTW, if you want to read the simple fantasy land that was post invasion Iraq, try Imperial Life in the Emerald City: Inside Iraq's Green Zone. However I have to warn you that the incompetence documented in this book is depressing.
  20. #20  
    Yeah, that is an overly simplistic idea.
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