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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Palestinians have no carrots, no power, no money and believe their only hope is to ally themselves with extremists who at least provide a stick to fight back with.
    I disagree! I have heard similar arguments before: "I'm powerless -- I can't do anything," "I am poor -- I can't do anything," etc. I am not buying it. There comes a time when the carrots need to come from within: The Palestinian leadership must redirect the hatred, anger and twisted history into something positive and hopeful. Money (carrot) has been given to the Palestinian Authority (i.e. Arafat), and plenty of it (the fact that he misused the funds is a different story). Israel opened its borders to a floodgate of Palestinian workers (carrot #2) before the Antifada started but suicide bombings put an end to that. Sometimes the responsibility lies in the hands of the oppress (sounds oxymoronic but after close examination, the entire Middle East appears this way).
    Last edited by impish; 02/12/2007 at 01:56 PM.
  2. TomUps's Avatar
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    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I do recognize that Israel is partially to blame for the current situation. Repression just breeds resentment and further hostility and there is no breaking point here. Israel, rather than continuing to ramp up the cycle of hatred and violence, should instead hold up a carrot of opportunity, helping palestinians in Israel proper to be first class citizens just like everyone else, and helping the palestinians in Gaza/palestinian territories through aid and economic development.
    You want Israel to send aid and assist in economic development to a government that has still not recognized Israels right to exist, and in fact, is sworn to its destruction? Not going to happen...
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by impish View Post
    I disagree! I have heard similar arguments before: "I'm powerless -- I can't do anything," "I am poor -- I can't do anything," etc. I am not buying it. There comes a time when the carrots need to come within: The Palestinian leadership must redirect the hatred, anger and twisted history into something positive and hopeful. Money (carrot) has been given to the Palestinian Authority (i.e. Arafat), and plenty of it (the fact that he misused the funds is a different story). Israel opened its borders to a floodgate of Palestinian workers before the Antifada started but suicide bombings put an end to that. Sometimes the responsibility lies in the hands of the oppress (sounds oxymoronic but after close examination, the entire Middle East appears this way).
    I agree completely.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Palestinians have no carrots, no power, no money and believe their only hope is to ally themselves with extremists who at least provide a stick to fight back with.
    I think this statement is false.

    How much annual foreign support and aid do they receive and have received in the past?

    Palestine has been offered several deals and have refused them each time because they did not include the total removal of Israel. One of the latest examples is the last ditch effort by Bill Clinton before leaving office. He and Israel offered then something like 92% of the land that they have been demanding. They refused with comments following it that they will not stop until Israel is totally destroyed. They have stated in several past mission statements that a Pal and Israel states will not be side by side. Historically as well, when a cease fire is called and agreed upon, it is Hamas or some other Pal Terrorist Org that breaks it before any concessions in Pal favor can be given by Israel. I think this is because that would be a move to a Pal state....a Pal state next to an Israel one, which cannot happen.

    I am not giving Israel a free pass by any means. There is little doubt that offenses occur from their side of the wall both by the gov and by it's citizens. Just putting this specific comment in historical context.

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    how it deals with taking land, it becomes clear that Israel also has its share in how bad the situation is, even if the Palestinian/Arab side is more at fault historically.
    Has Israel ever taken land from a war they have started? Or have they preemptively taken land without being attacked first?

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I also found it interesting to note that from 29.9.2000-31.1.2007 there have been 815 Palestinian minors killed by the Israeli (mostly by the Israeli army) and 119 Israeli minors killed by Palestinians (mostly Palestinian terrorists).
    Do you think the tactic of using women and children as human shields has anything to do with these sad numbers?

    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 02/12/2007 at 02:10 PM.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps View Post
    You want Israel to send aid and assist in economic development to a government that has still not recognized Israels right to exist, and in fact, is sworn to its destruction? Not going to happen...
    Quote Originally Posted by impish View Post
    (sounds oxymoronic but after close examination, the entire Middle East appears this way).
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by impish View Post
    I disagree! I have heard similar arguments before: "I'm powerless -- I can't do anything," "I am poor -- I can't do anything," etc. I am not buying it. There comes a time when the carrots need to come from within: The Palestinian leadership must redirect the hatred, anger and twisted history into something positive and hopeful. Money (carrot) has been given to the Palestinian Authority (i.e. Arafat), and plenty of it (the fact that he misused the funds is a different story). Israel opened its borders to a floodgate of Palestinian workers (carrot #2) before the Antifada started but suicide bombings put an end to that. Sometimes the responsibility lies in the hands of the oppress (sounds oxymoronic but after close examination, the entire Middle East appears this way).
    The palestinian leadership are terrorists. No carrots are coming from the terrorists, they want the violence to continue. The palestinian people are a different story, they want the same things we want, prosperity, peace and dignity.
  7. #67  
    I like that statement. My follow-up question is why do they not speak out against the terrorists who are sabotaging their best chances to have prosperity, peace and dignity?
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    I like that statement. My follow-up question is why do they not speak out against the terrorists who are sabotaging their best chances to have prosperity, peace and dignity?
    The hearts and minds of the people themselves have been won over by these extremists simply because they promised they would fight for their interests. The option from Israel is continued domination and supression, at least that is what they believe. They do not share your view (which is of course the correct one) that sideing with Israel is in their best interests.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps View Post
    You want Israel to send aid and assist in economic development to a government that has still not recognized Israels right to exist, and in fact, is sworn to its destruction? Not going to happen...
    Israeli government giving money to Hamas will not work, of course.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    The palestinian leadership are terrorists. No carrots are coming from the terrorists, they want the violence to continue. The palestinian people are a different story, they want the same things we want, prosperity, peace and dignity.
    Catch 22 -- ain't it? Precisely why I mocked the situation as hopelessly oxymoronic.
    Exhibit A (Palestinian): We want peace but our government (Hamas) doesn't, so we have no choice but to side with Hamas.
    Exhibit B (Palestinian): We want peace so we will side with Israel because it is our best chance for land and peace.
    Exhibit C (Hamas): We do not recognize Israel's right to exist and therefore sabotage any chance for peace. The entire state of Israel is the true Palestinian state.
    Exhibit D (Israel): Hamas doesn't recognize us so what's there to chat about?
    Exhibit E (Israel): Let's give the Palestinians lots of carrots and they'll side with us.
    Exhibit F (Israel): Until suicide bombings stop and a full recognition of our rights to exist occur nothing will happen.
    There are many variables for these exhibits.

    Still, I am not convinced with your hypothesis. Why (even with all the carrots in the world), will the Palestinians side with Israel not Hamas? Many Palestinians see Hamas as the "real thing" and they agree with its premise (Exhibit C).
    Besides, Israel (and the US/EU) gave money and jobs to the Palestinians and that did not solve the problem. President Clinton, PM Barak and PA Arafat were very close to sign a deal that evaporated due to mistrust and irreconcilable differences. The only carrot, at this point, that should be tossed around is a round table with Palestinian and Israeli representatives who are willing to take bold steps to sign a peace treaty. I can't see Palestinians and Israelis without such leadership, but with all the carrots the world could give, making peace on their own.
    Last edited by impish; 02/12/2007 at 05:39 PM.
  11. #71  
    When someone posts issues about the Middle East on a specialty technology site, like TC, you gotta wonder. Seeing the comments by vw2002, I dont wonder. Its clear he has an issue with Jews/Israelis and posted here not to hear what differing viewes their may be on the subject. I have seen this on other specialty sites.
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  12. #72  
    "Ought to be investigated" Who made you the moral judge of Israelis?

    I have not seen you post on here asking for investigation after the homicide bombings in Netanya, Teli Aviv, Jerusalem etc etc. I did not see you asking for an investigation on the daily rockets fired at Sderot. I did not see crying for an investigation over this incident http://www.israelnewsagency.com/roshshanaterrorism.html and the thousands like it.

    I did not see you express your displeasure over the Palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11.

    You talk about the "arrogance" of these kids, yet you do not think that it is sheer arrogance on your part to judge Israel, that lives under terror for over 60 years, surrounded by brutal dictatorial regimes?

    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002 View Post
    For me, the videos sparked an interest in discovering just how widespread these offensive attitudes really are.

    I
    Its true that it is premature to condemn millions based on what a few say or do, but I think what was shown suggests a radicalism which ought to be investigated further, especially if we are to go on lending them our unwavering support.

    I don't think this is unreasonable.
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  13. #73  
    Since the subject of this thread are those silly videos, all is game. But, alas, back to the topic. Clearly one video shows stupidity. Now how many of us witnessed or heard about such stupidity by youngsters (or movie stars: cough-cough), drunk and ignorant and belligerent? This is not news. Not news anywhere accept in Israel, so it seems. If a Korean or Swiss or Romanian kid, drunk and silly, utters such nonsense will it make the evil-sensationalism market? Probably not. Why oh why everything about Israel needs to take off in such overrated and spicy way?
    Enough.
    Just pass the bottle over...
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by impish View Post
    Since the subject of this thread are those silly videos, all is game. But, alas, back to the topic. Clearly one video shows stupidity. Now how many of us witnessed or heard about such stupidity by youngsters (or movie stars: cough-cough), drunk and ignorant and belligerent? This is not news. Not news anywhere accept in Israel, so it seems. If a Korean or Swiss or Romanian kid, drunk and silly, utters such nonsense will it make the evil-sensationalism market? Probably not. Why oh why everything about Israel needs to take off in such overrated and spicy way?
    Enough.
    Just pass the bottle over...
    I agree, anything that happens in the middle east seems to get magnified and the actions of a few will be taken as the actions of a whole nation..
    It does not help discussion IMHO..

    It is like claiming all american universities are a breeding pen for racism with the footage of those drunk students in the Borat movie as evidence..
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  15. #75  
    But most of the universities in America really ARE a breeding ground.
  16. vw2002's Avatar
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       #76  
    naftalim, I will tell you AGAIN. read my original posts.

    I supported israel up to this point until I saw the arrogance portrayed by these videos.

    You just want so badly to say that I am anti-semitic, without looking first at what I've really said. don't you?

    I am offended by both the behavior and attitudes displayed by these individuals, therefore I have to think twice about lending my support to people who act this way toward us.

    In vino veritas. (in wine there's truth.) I think we've gotten an interesting glimpse into the real thoughts of some people who reside in israel.

    I find it interesting that YOU don't condemn what these settlers have said, naftalim. are you going to do that, or are you just going to continue with your apologist ramblings here?

    I've said NUMEROUS times in this thread that I hope these are just the attitudes of a few, but if they turn out to be the majority, we should investigate the situation and reevaluate our alliance with israel.

    How many times do I need to say this?

    your snips about the palestinians dancing in the streets after 9/11
    are tactless.. what, do you think I was happy with that and simply let it go?
    I am pointing out here that israel as well as palestinians are at fault here, but the arrogance of the jews in certain areas forces one to reconsider his or her stance on the issue.
    Get it through your head. I want to know if the attitudes shown in these videos are, indeed, representative of the few, or of a larger majority. If the majority feels this way, this is where I step in and say enough is enough. fend for yourselves.

    Go ahead and call me anti-semitic. I don't give a s$it. its simply a matter of principle to me. I WONT support a nation that blatantly disrespects those outside of their religion like this. Period.

    If you want to remain on good terms with western nations or any other nation, show us this is the case.

    Don't BS me with all this apologist crap.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  17. vw2002's Avatar
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       #77  
    who made me the authority to judge the israelis?

    who are YOU to say that we shouldn't be offended by these people? Do you think you are entitled to our support regardless of whatever insults and slights the jews direct at us?

    impish... silly videos? are you saying that these examples shouldn't be taken seriously? these are the future generations of israelis - and you think we should just ignore this behavior?

    I think your comments are silly., and that sadly, you choose to turn and blind eye to how the israelis have been involved in this crisis - as if they are free from wrongdoing. You seem to state that it is the palestinian state which is 100% at fault, with israel being the completely innocent victim.

    I think THOSE are the attitudes which are silly - completely and undeniably so.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  18. vw2002's Avatar
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       #78  
    To those who think we should overlook these situations and regard the israelis as completely innocent from blame in this conflict, YOU should pass the bottle.

    keep on blindly supporting such people who dump on you or your beliefs whenever they choose - free of criticism. go ahead.

    ignorance is bliss I guess, isn't it?
    bravo.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  19. #79  
    If a prerequisite of alliance is having all citizens have acceptable social attitudes, there would be no alliances (which may not be a bad thing). Just look at the U. S. With all the red/blue and left/right foolishness, how could we ever qualify for alliance with another country requiring homogeneity?

    Alliances are built on interpendencies and/or mutual goals. That is, each party provides what the other needs, or each party sees an outcome that is more important to both, than the impact of the collective matters that might distinguish them one from the other.

    I believe our the U. S. alliance with Israel has had support historically because a significant portion of our citizenry felt the land and the people held spiritual significance. Today, the support seems to stem from an almost voyeuristic glee over the presence of "democracy" in the region (as though democracy were the ideal form of governing---hmm, I'm beginning to understand why some call our efforts imperialistic). I believe what we will see is that the spread of democracy is not a sufficiently strong enough foundation.
  20. #80  
    Originally Posted By: vw2002 at Today 02:15 AM

    "Do you think you are entitled to our support regardless of whatever insults and slights the jews direct at us?"


    '02

    "The Jews" in Isreal might assume all Americans are anti semitic after reading
    a post like this. Why are you so ready to ascribe the actions of a few loose cannons to a whole nation? You might want to take a peek in the mirror.

    Wow. Talk about ramblings.
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