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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I agree, I bet if you spent a lot of time watching unsupervised 10 or 12 year olds run amok or, for that matter, angry drunks looking for a fight, you would find a lot of ugly material, no matter what country (or off topics forum) you were visiting.
    I agree and I was extremely offended by the comments of that drunk Israeli. I'm just not willing to condemn the whole population based on them.
  2. #42  
    After seeing the video clips I have to remind the poster that Israeli settlers represent a tiny fraction of Israeli society so put things in perspective please. In fact, the settlers often attack Israeli journalists who visit the area and, in Israel proper, they throw stones on cars that pass by their neighborhoods on Saturdays.
    I'd be the last to defend brutality and inhumane treatment. Every time Israelis and Palestinians get (somewhat) closer to a treaty (that could lead to peaceful solutions) something happens.
    Still, the need to look (politically) forward is important. I find Hamas' absolute-defiance, once again, of Israel's right to exist as damaging to peace-efforts as an act of brutality for it leads to it.
    Both sides have rights and both sides have produced wrongs.
    Last edited by impish; 02/10/2007 at 05:16 PM.
  3. #43  
    I think you'll find that the principle parties involved in this dispute do not deny that the land was promised to Abram/Abraham, as all are considered his descendants. Instead, the dispute centers on who among descendents is the rightful heir. Thus the matter is more legal, specifically probationary, than religious in nature.

    Interestingly, a review of the historical account shows that said deity anticipated all families of the earth being partakers in and beneficiaries of the promise.
  4. #44  
    What worries me is that the title of my house (anywhere in this universe) is useless if someone with guns comes along and claims that their god promised them that plot of land x000's of years ago ....

    Heck, even Native Americans could do that very easily here in the US.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  5. #45  
    That's two separate matters. The use of guns (more broadly, use of force) puts your posession at risk regardless of the motivation of those in pursuit.

    Apart from force, claims to property can be resolved through investigation and/or negotiation.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad View Post
    What worries me is that the title of my house (anywhere in this universe) is useless if someone with guns comes along and claims that their god promised them that plot of land x000's of years ago ....

    Heck, even Native Americans could do that very easily here in the US.
    They tried, but you had better guns and killed those who tried to fight.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    They tried, but you had better guns and killed those who tried to fight.
    Exactly the reason to keep an armed populace and a strong national defence because, like it or not, human nature hasn't changed a bit in the last two hundred years.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by impish View Post
    After seeing the video clips I have to remind the poster that Israeli settlers represent a tiny fraction of Israeli society so put things in perspective please.
    I am afraid you got the numbers wrong: "According to Israeli government statistics, just under 400,000 Israelis lived in territories captured during the 1967 war as of November 2000. Since the Oslo Accords 1993, the settlers' number on the West Bank (excluding East Jerusalem) has doubled, from 115,000 to 230,000." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement

    400.000 is about 7.5% of the Jewish population of Israel (76% Jewish, 20% Arab). Also note that the number of settlers in the West Bank has doubled in the past 13 years.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    Exactly the reason to keep an armed populace and a strong national defence because, like it or not, human nature hasn't changed a bit in the last two hundred years.
    So you support Palestinians using force against the occupants, such as the Israeli army or settlers?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Seriously, I think we need to be careful about wrongfully overgeneralizing from selective examples and realize how common it is that this technique is used to politically to set one group of people against another.
    That's true. I'm quite sure one could find as many active Israeli supporters of Palestinians as wacko settlers such as the ones in the videos.

    But when looking at the overall picture of how Israel treats the Palestinians and how it deals with taking land, it becomes clear that Israel also has its share in how bad the situation is, even if the Palestinian/Arab side is more at fault historically.

    It is unfortunate that present day US politics support Israel no matter how it behaves (e.g. stealing land by building the security wall). A more realistic view would be helpful.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  11. vw2002's Avatar
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       #51  
    For me, the videos sparked an interest in discovering just how widespread these offensive attitudes really are.

    I know we are saying that these actions are just representative of a "few", but I have to be more certain of this now. Those were extremely offensive comments, and just as people of the jewish faith aggressively investigate/ prosecute anti-semitic remarks and actions, I feel its reasonable for us to do the same when we hear or see "anti-gentile" attitudes and actions. It works BOTH ways.

    If these are indeed just radical examples, that would be reassuring - to a point. But if it turns out that these notions are more widespread than we thought, we should pursue that and consider the situation very carefully.

    Its true that it is premature to condemn millions based on what a few say or do, but I think what was shown suggests a radicalism which ought to be investigated further, especially if we are to go on lending them our unwavering support.

    I don't think this is unreasonable.
    Last edited by vw2002; 02/11/2007 at 03:52 PM.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    So you support Palestinians using force against the occupants, such as the Israeli army or settlers?
    Too late for that. When their time came, they left.
  13. #53  
    The bottom like is: Life is not fair. Might is right.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    Too late for that. When their time came, they left.
    Is this some sort of absurd humour? In case you did not notice: those who left did not leave because they wanted to, and many Palestinians are still there, even if they are constantly suppressed and pushed back by new settlements etc.
    Last edited by clulup; 02/11/2007 at 04:51 PM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002 View Post
    For me, the videos sparked an interest in discovering just how widespread these offensive attitudes really are.

    I know we are saying that these actions are just representative of a "few", but I have to be more certain of this now. Those were extremely offensive comments, and just as people of the jewish faith aggressively investigate/ prosecute anti-semitic remarks and actions, I feel its reasonable for us to do the same when we hear or see "anti-gentile" attitudes and actions. It works BOTH ways.

    If these are indeed just radical examples, that would be reassuring - to a point. But if it turns out that these notions are more widespread than we thought, we should pursue that and consider the situation very carefully.

    Its true that it is premature to condemn millions based on what a few say or do, but I think what was shown suggests a radicalism which ought to be investigated further, especially if we are to go on lending them our unwavering support.

    I don't think this is unreasonable.
    There is an interesting Israeli Human Rights group called B'tselem (www.btselem.org), it has many statistics and other information about the Intifada or the settlements. There is also a currrent press release about the situation in Hebron http://www.btselem.org/english/Press.../20070111.asp). Fact is that the Israeli government is doing close to nothing to stop Ultra-Orthodox settlers attacking Palestinian women and children. Check Youtube for Yifat Alkoby as just one example (she is the one mentioned in the press release above).

    I also found it interesting to note that from 29.9.2000-31.1.2007 there have been 815 Palestinian minors killed by the Israeli (mostly by the Israeli army) and 119 Israeli minors killed by Palestinians (mostly Palestinian terrorists).
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    That's true. I'm quite sure one could find as many active Israeli supporters of Palestinians as wacko settlers such as the ones in the videos.

    But when looking at the overall picture of how Israel treats the Palestinians and how it deals with taking land, it becomes clear that Israel also has its share in how bad the situation is, even if the Palestinian/Arab side is more at fault historically.

    It is unfortunate that present day US politics support Israel no matter how it behaves (e.g. stealing land by building the security wall). A more realistic view would be helpful.
    I agree with you clulup. Israel very much needs the United States protection from its hostile neighbors, but at the same time I do recognize that Israel is partially to blame for the current situation. Repression just breeds resentment and further hostility and there is no breaking point here. Israel, rather than continuing to ramp up the cycle of hatred and violence, should instead hold up a carrot of opportunity, helping palestinians in Israel proper to be first class citizens just like everyone else, and helping the palestinians in Gaza/palestinian territories through aid and economic development. The US needs to provide the leadership for this. I believe what Martin Luther King said about the mideast situation is as true today as it was back in the 60s:

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Luther King
    Israel's right to exist as a state in security is incontestable. At the same time the great powers have the obligation to recognize that the Arab world is in a state of imposed poverty and backwardness that must threaten peace and harmony. Until a concerted and democratic program of assistance is affected, tensions cannot be relieved. So there is a need for a Marshall Plan for the Middle East.
    http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/a...wpeacerace.htm
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    400.000 is about 7.5% of the Jewish population of Israel (76% Jewish, 20% Arab). Also note that the number of settlers in the West Bank has doubled in the past 13 years.
    7.5% isn't a fraction? (For the Palestinians, truly, 1 settler is too many...but still.)

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    It is unfortunate that present day US politics support Israel no matter how it behaves (e.g. stealing land by building the security wall). A more realistic view would be helpful.
    And one could argue that it is unfortunate, as well, that present-and-past days Russian politics support the Palestinians no matter how they behave. And EU politics isn't made for projectionists either!

    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    ...but at the same time I do recognize that Israel is partially to blame for the current situation. Repression just breeds resentment and further hostility and there is no breaking point here. Israel, rather than continuing to ramp up the cycle of hatred and violence, should instead hold up a carrot of opportunity
    I totally agree. But here's a catch: It takes two to tango. Violence wasn't exactly invented and maintained by Israel. In today's Palestinian school curriculum kids learn that hating Israel is acceptable and blood-to-be-spilled is an OK practice. Students are being brainwashed from kindergarten-on to hate mindlessly, and by the time they reach adulthood why should they sit down to sign peace treaties with the ones they learned to hate?
    Both sides need the carrot dangling.
    Last edited by impish; 02/11/2007 at 09:22 PM.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    Is this some sort of absurd humour? In case you did not notice: those who left did not leave because they wanted to, and many Palestinians are still there, even if they are constantly suppressed and pushed back by new settlements etc.
    Actually, to be fair, people were displaced on both sides--both voluntarily and forcibly. Many predominantly Jewish towns had their Jewish populations forcibly removed when Jordan took over the West Bank in 1948. For years, even after 1967, Israeli policy was to not allow Israelis to resettle those formerly Jewish settlements.

    At any rate, my original point was aimed at the US, not the PA.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by impish View Post
    7.5% isn't a fraction? (For the Palestinians, truly, 1 settler is too many...but still.)
    And isn't that a problem? Why would one settler be too much?
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by impish View Post
    Both sides need the carrot dangling.
    Palestinians have no carrots, no power, no money and believe their only hope is to ally themselves with extremists who at least provide a stick to fight back with.
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