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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I think you get my meaning.
    Yes, you're picking on the religious unfairly. Labor Zionists made up the bulk of the Haganah and much of the IDF since. If you want to talk about "atrocities" committed against Palestinians you need to look mostly to the Left and irreligious.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    Yes, you're picking on the religious unfairly. Labor Zionists made up the bulk of the Haganah and much of the IDF since. If you want to talk about "atrocities" committed against Palestinians you need to look mostly to the Left and irreligious.
    Regardless, the entire mess is based on religious BS. You can slice and dice it between qroups but the crux of the matter is the religious belief in a historical claim to a land area.
  3. #23  
    What do you mean religious? How about historical? Jews have lived in Israel since time immemorial. There is certainly no dispute that there was a Kingdom of Israel in ancient times.

    I lived in the Jordan Valley, above me there is a range of mountains called Harei Naftali, the Mountains of Naftali. Where did that name come from, did it just get made up?

    Aside from that, if you want to talk religious fanaticism, look at Hamas, Islamic Jihad and their supporters.

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Regardless, the entire mess is based on religious BS. You can slice and dice it between qroups but the crux of the matter is the religious belief in a historical claim to a land area.
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  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by naftalim View Post
    What do you mean religious? How about historical? Jews have lived in Israel since time immemorial. There is certainly no dispute that there was a Kingdom of Israel in ancient times.
    So after a 1000 years later a religious group decides they want to go back to this area and claim it. You know there's a belief that "god wants us to have this land." Why do you pretend otherwise?

    Quote Originally Posted by naftalim View Post
    Aside from that, if you want to talk religious fanaticism, look at Hamas, Islamic Jihad and their supporters.
    Please take an honest look at what happened only 60 years ago to foster the injustice which has lead to the groups you mention. Don't act as if these groups occured in a vacuum.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Regardless, the entire mess is based on religious BS. You can slice and dice it between qroups but the crux of the matter is the religious belief in a historical claim to a land area.
    Not entirely true. The main motives behind the early resettlements in the Palestinian Mandate were much more ethnic and nationalistic than religious. They wanted to escape anti-semitism, mostly. Some even went to Africa as part of the British Uganda program. In fact, most of the religious Jews in the Mandate at that time were indigenous. The leaders of the movement then were, as I said, mostly irreligious socialists.

    You can blame it on "religious BS" all you want but the bottom line is that for 2,000 years the center of Judaism and the Jewish population was a stretch of land east of Egypt and any movement that wanted to take hold of the people's sense of nationalistic pride would have to be based on repopulating that land.
  6. #26  
    U got it wrong, the majority of Israelis are not religious. The founders of the State of Israel were not religious. As well, Jews have lived in Israel all the time. In fact, prior to the founding of the State of Israel, anyone living in that area was a Palestinian, Jew, Muslim or Christian.

    [QUOTE=daThomas;1194879]So after a 1000 years later a religious group decides they want to go back to this area and claim it. You know there's a belief that "god wants us to have this land." Why do you pretend otherwise?


    Yes, the injustice is that the Arabs did not want the Jews there, they want an Islamic Caliphate, and they will fight to the last Palestinian to do so while keeping this issue burning so that it will distract their own people from the miserable state they are in.

    By the way, Arab terror started way back, even before the founding of the State of Israel. There was Arab terror way before the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank.

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Please take an honest look at what happened only 60 years ago to foster the injustice which has lead to the groups you mention. Don't act as if these groups occured in a vacuum.
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  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Regardless, the entire mess is based on religious BS. You can slice and dice it between qroups but the crux of the matter is the religious belief in a historical claim to a land area.
    Give it up. There is no point in using logic in a dispute that is centered around religion, god-given-rights-to-land, and faith in the _____ .
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    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    So after a 1000 years later a religious group decides they want to go back to this area and claim it. You know there's a belief that "god wants us to have this land." Why do you pretend otherwise?


    Please take an honest look at what happened only 60 years ago to foster the injustice which has lead to the groups you mention. Don't act as if these groups occured in a vacuum.
    This about sums up DaTs lack of knowledge about the whole topic. Jews didnt magically reappear in Israel 60 years ago, they have always been there, living side by side with muslims and christians.

    The difference is that the palestinians were offered a home land side by side with Israel and they turned it down. They wanted it all.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad View Post
    Give it up. There is no point in using logic in a dispute that is centered around religion, god-given-rights-to-land, and faith in the _____ .
    It might be worth a shot if his logic was correct. I have no dog in this race, I'm just pointing out the flaws in his argument.
  10. #30  
    Extrapolating the actions of a select few onto a whole group of people (Whether its arabs, jews, illegal aliens, gays, elistits, conservatives, liberals, etc.), seems to be a recurring theme nowadays.
  11. #31  
    Logic? Or blindness.
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       #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by naftalim View Post
    Spare me your anguish. We have been brutalized and murdered en masse by Christians for centuries, in ways way more destructive than a couple of kids throwing stones. Now we have the Muslim/Arab world threatning us with destruction. My people went like sheep just 60 years ago, so sorry, we dont want to do it again.

    The Palestinians could have had a state in 1948 when the UN voted to partition the British mandate to a Jewish and Arab states. The Arab world refused and chose to attempt to gain by war what they could not by diplomacy. Now the Palestinians claim to be victims.

    What do you think would have happened if Israel ever lost one of the previous wars, whether it be in 1948, 1956, 1967 or 1973? It would have made the carnage in Iraq look like a tea party.

    Quote

    You cant tell me that, as a reasonable person, the despicable behavior described in both the videos and articles provided above WOULDN`T raise red flags or put legitimate questions in your mind.

    I understand what you are saying regarding the peace activists, but this does not give the Israelis the right to stone, rob, or physically harm them. Those are NOT the actions of a democratic state.
    [/QUOTE]



    Spare me your apologist explanations for why this disgusting behavior shouldn`t be confronted. Wars of the past are no excuse for crimes or abuses committed today. Dont give me that. No one is brutalizing your people TODAY. Christians arent murdering your people by the thousands TODAY. Who is murdering the palestinians en masse now, the christians? I thought the attack on the American within Israel was a rather interesting display of hospitality, wouldnt you say? See the link clulup posted.

    What matters is the here and now, not what happened centuries ago or 50 years ago. Yes Iran is an established enemy to Israel- they are being dealt with internationally. The Palestinians are at fault for wanting it all and refusing to work toward a peaceful Arab state alongside Israel. But those arrogant, ego-centric Israeli attitudes we see in these videos dont exactly help Israel`s plight in the world either.

    You cant use the past as a means to excuse the present misconduct.
    Last edited by vw2002; 02/09/2007 at 11:34 PM.
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       #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Extrapolating the actions of a select few onto a whole group of people (Whether its arabs, jews, illegal aliens, gays, elistits, conservatives, liberals, etc.), seems to be a recurring theme nowadays.
    Oh stop it, cell. Read the initial posts again. The whole point being made here is that one hopes these instances are, INDEED, just the actions of the select few and not reflective of a larger majority.

    Do you know for a FACT that this is the case? You know, turning a blind eye to the key factors in problematic situations seems to be a recurring theme nowadays as well.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  14. #34  
    Siding with Clulup now?!?! VDub, you've sunk to an all time low.
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       #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by sblanter View Post
    Logic? Or blindness.
    Dismissing or excusing those actions is a form of blindness.
    I gotta have more cowbell
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       #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by pdxtreo View Post
    Siding with Clulup now?!?! VDub, you've sunk to an all time low.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002 View Post
    Oh stop it, cell. Read the initial posts again. The whole point being made here is that one hopes these instances are, INDEED, just the actions of the select few and not reflective of a larger majority.

    Do you know for a FACT that this is the case? You know, turning a blind eye to the key factors in problematic situations seems to be a recurring theme nowadays as well.
    VW no need to be defensive, I think you misinterpret me here. I agree with you on this thread and with the quote above. I am just disappointed by reactions to your comments which try to stigmatize Israelis as a whole, and they remind me once again that throwing the blame on an entire group of people, whether it is arabs, jews, mexican immigrants, gays, conservatives, liberals, chinese, etc is just an easy way out of addressing the real problems.

    Now to get to the specifics of this thread. The radical Israelis lashing out at others without accepting any responsibility for it themselves is precisely the problem here (as you point out). There is an escalating cycle of hatred and violence between Israelis and Arabs which feeds off itself. Every bombing by arab extremists, every retribution by Israel, it just amplifies this perpetuating cycle of violence. Similarly every provocative act or statement, as you depict in these videos, will just get played on Al Jazeera ad nauseum and incite just as much, if not more provocative acts and statements against jews in return. Denouncing this type of hate speech does not represent capitulation but rather sets an example for others to follow.
  18. #38  
    I feel sorry for the kids (that's what they are .. 9 or 10 year olds) throwing the rocks at defenceless (or choosing not to defend themselves) individuals. I know 10 year old kids. I know how impressionable they are. They are children.

    The one's in the video show a level of in-humanity that they will carry with them for the rest of their lives.
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  19. #39  
    Kids can also be some of the cruelist individuals around - even without external impressions. I know kids, too. I've even been one.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by sblanter View Post
    Kids can also be some of the cruelist individuals around - even without external impressions. I know kids, too. I've even been one.
    I agree, I bet if you spent a lot of time watching unsupervised 10 or 12 year olds run amok or, for that matter, angry drunks looking for a fight, you would find a lot of ugly material, no matter what country (or off topics forum) you were visiting.

    Seriously, I think we need to be careful about wrongfully overgeneralizing from selective examples and realize how common it is that this technique is used to politically to set one group of people against another.
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