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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    To get what, guaranteed access to mediocre healthcare in an increasingly untimely manner?

    Yeah, beats me.

    Being in the "business" myself I see what its like in other countries and I have to say: I don't want to get ill but if I must, I hope it's in America.
    I've been in the business myself and seen much analysis and the Canadian system is the best.

    It's really just a matter of philosophy. If you wanna make it a commodity and buy and sell healthcare or if you want to realize it's a base human societal need and address it in that manner. My point is the rest of the industrialized capitalist countries view it as the latter.
  2. #22  
    So is food, shelter, etc. It's not free. I don't understand why all these other countries don't "get it".
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I've been in the business myself and seen much analysis and the Canadian system is the best.
    In Canada, every citizen has coverage, but access can still be a problem. Based on 2003 data from the Canadian Community Health Survey an estimated 1.2 million Canadians do not have a regular doctor because they "cannot find" one and just over twice that number do not have one because they "haven't looked". Those without a regular doctor are 3.5 times more likely to visit an emergency room for treatment. Complaints of long waiting lists for some services are also common. For example, in a survey of hospital administrators conducted in Canada, the United States, and three other countries, 21 percent of Canadian hospital administrators admitted that it would take over three weeks to do a biopsy for possible breast cancer on a 50 year old woman. Less than one percent of American administrators made this claim. according to the same survey, fifty percent of Canadian administrators versus none of their American counterparts stated that it would take over six months for a sixty-five year old to undergo a routine hip replacement surgery.

    Thats a small touch of faults within there health care structure.
    Do we really want that.I think not
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by sblanter View Post
    So is food, shelter, etc. It's not free. I don't understand why all these other countries don't "get it".
    Great point that so many over look when it come to healthcare.
    If anyhting the drug companys should be the main focus.
    You can buy a loaf of bread for a couple bucs and spend 2000$ in medacations to keep you alive.Montel Williams has steped up playing a big roll with Partnership for Perscription Assistance.Many props to him
  5. #25  
    I agree that healthcare shouldn't be free to all. But just as we see homelessness as a "problem," I think having millions of people without access to healthcare is also a problem.

    I think the cost problem is with drug companies, hospitals, doctors, and the legal system.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I've been in the business myself and seen much analysis and the Canadian system is the best.
    Really? What analysis is that? And does it take into consideration things like wait times? It takes 4 months to get an MRI in a typical BC hospital.
  7. #27  
    Let's not forget the simple but profound adage, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." The American lifestyle has become and continues to grow unhealthy--including diet, social behaviors, sedimentary lifestyles, rest-less pursuit of stuff, etc. These factors contribute to higher instances of obesity, high blood pressure, sexually transmitted disease, and higher risk for cancer, organ failure, and stress related illnesses and diseases.

    We are making a big deal at the wrong end of the equation.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    4. Taxing the super-rich sounds attractive, and easy, but it can be counter-productive to an extent. Note that when tax rates were reduced, federal tax revenues went up. What do you think would happen if tax rates were raised?
    There are many issues in this thread.

    1. Tax cuts raise revenues , but not enough to compensate for the loss of revenue from the cuts. There is no NET increase in revenues. This is even when dynamic revenue estimation is used (ie, when the increase in economy is included). This is what even the non-partisan CBO (Congressional Budget Office) concluded in a report when the Republicans had the White house and the Congress.The logical extension of the favorite conservative argument on tax cuts is: Cut taxes to zero and the revenue to the Govt. will be infinite

    Read the analysis and references at
    http://www.cbpp.org/3-8-06tax.htm
    [Edit: Here is a direct link to the CBO report from December 2005
    "Analyzing the Economic and Budgetary Effects of a 10 Percent Cut in Income Tax Rates"
    http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/69xx/doc6...centTaxCut.pdf


    2. Many ultra rich (Bill Gates, Buffet) contribute significantly (much more than their taxes) to health care through charitable foundations. They also favor more taxes for themselves including estate taxes!!

    3. Health care is indeed different from other goods and services and cannot be handled entirely by the open market paradigm.

    a) health care is a basic human right. That is why we demand that ER care is free and poor are not left to die in the streets if they cannot afford life-saving care.

    b) no private insurance will handle old people and people with pre-existing conditions (like cancer, diabetes) who are not actuarially profitable clients. The only way these would get affordable insurance is when the contributing base is largest to spread their cost and risk. Universal insurance of some sort.

    d) Universal coverage in US need not be the same as universal insurance in Canada or other western countries. We could have a basic universal coverage augmented by private insurance for those who can afford it. The rich can still get their MRI the next day. They don't have to wait 4 months like the Canadians do. But at least the poor can get an MRI!!
    We have universal health care for the elderly (Medicare). How long do people on Medicare have to wait for MRI? Why not extend Medicare for everyone (and allow everyone to buy extra coverage)?

    Increasing the size of the medical client base to everyone will increase the market size of healthcare: More doctors, drug sales.. The losers will be the highly profitable health insurance companies tho eat up 30% of the current $ in overhead costs.
    Last edited by aprasad; 01/27/2007 at 05:39 AM. Reason: more information
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  9. vw2002's Avatar
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       #29  
    One of the points samkim brought up was the issue of malpractice lawsuits. Doctors' liability insurance costs are passed on to the patients as a result of these often frivilous claims.

    The lawsuits need to stop right now. What is happening to Nifong - the reprehensible attorney who is attacking the good names of the duke students in the rape case - should be the consequence for any and all lawyers who pursue glaringly disingenious medical lawsuits. If there is a genuine instance of neglect on the doctor's part, that's one thing. But selfish or malicious intent on the part of an attorney should be met with permanent disbarment. Patients who file for false claims should be fined for the amount they are falsely suing the doctor for.

    If we get rid of frivilous lawsuits, costs to doctors and therefore the patients will decrease - we have to get this done.

    I'm not sure I'm all that wild about universal healthcare. From what I've heard, it sounds like quantity vs quality. Yes, everyone gets medical coverage but its mediocre coverage - there's the catch. If we can ensure that immediate, HIGH quality care is the standard in such a plan, I would take it seriously, but I'm not persuaded yet.

    As far as medical coverage being a basic right - I agree, BUT if you are a doctor practicing at the California hospital which provided $60 million in unpaid medical treatment, how does a physician make a living? pay for the overhead? pay his or her staff, utilities, etc?

    Shopharim touched on a valid point - that more emphasis should be placed on prevention. Our country's obesity and therefore diabetic/hypertension issues are positively out of control.

    Fast food restaurants like Macdonalds should be firmly encouraged to eliminate the harmful fats and cholesterol from their foods - much of the problems start right there.

    Schools should be firmly encouraged if not forced to provide healthy foods ONLY to our kids, since this is where our children begin cementing their behavior patterns for adulthood.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  10. #30  
    I'm not sold on the notion that health care is a basic human right. We have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. we are not entitled to have assistance from others in realizing those rights--only an assurance others will not infringe.

    I appreciate health care assistance--both the subsidy from my employer and the expertise of my medical team. However, I don't have an inherent claim on those services. My only claim is found in the contractual terms agreed upon.

    I do see value in assisting my neighbor in maintaining health. However, that is and should be a voluntary involvement on my part. If I am under obligation to provide health care to another party, I should have authority to direct lifestyle, from the kitchen, to the gym and the bedroom and all points in between.

    I don't think that's what we want.
  11. vw2002's Avatar
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       #31  
    Speaking of frivolous lawsuits, I think there's probably a good chance I won't be voting for edwards, the lawyer, in this election either.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    I'm not sold on the notion that health care is a basic human right. We have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. we are not entitled to have assistance from others in realizing those rights--only an assurance others will not infringe.
    Should we repeal the laws that require hospitals to treat those who show up at the ER's? Should we let the indigent and uninsured die in the streets?

    That will change the argument quite a bit and let the illegals off the hook for raising our medical costs ....
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  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002 View Post
    One of the points samkim brought up was the issue of malpractice lawsuits. Doctors' liability insurance costs are passed on to the patients as a result of these often frivolous claims.
    No one wants frivolous lawsuits. Unfortunately, whether the lawsuit is considered frivolous or not depends on which side of the equation you are (plaintiff or defendant).
    The system us supposed to use jury and judges to decide on the merits. Why are they not doing their job properly?
    If you disallow any type of lawsuit, you may be trading a bad thing for something worse.
    I think all lawsuits should be possible, but the judge and jury should behave in more responsible manner, with punitive damages to the loser in lawsuit.
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  14. #34  
    Should we let uninsured die on the street.I dont understand your point.You can go into any emergency room and get service without med insurance.There are all kind of programs set up providing free health care.
    Ive been uninsured for over 15 years due to a pre existing condition.Temple loble tumer/eplipsy.
    Im not a begger.I want nothing for free
    Ive Paid my way
    For the ones that want to save everyones life.volunteer at free clinic helping the one you speak of before you take more money out of my pocket.Nothings free.We all pay the bill
  15. #35  
    My point is: Health is different from other commodity. We (mankind) have chosen to help another human when it comes to their health. That is why we have laws that require hospitals to care for people who show up at the emergency room. Health is different from other worldly possessions.

    That is why, as a society, universal health care makes sense, whereas universal housing or clothing or entertainment or transportation doesn't. We might as well extend a popular program like Medicare for everyone so that everyone gets a certain basic health care (especially preventive care). We'll save money in the long run.

    Unless we decide that health care is not a fundamental right and stop requiring hospitals to treat all who show up at the ER. Is there anyone here who wants that? No. Then why is there an argument against universal HC that allows additional coverage through private insurance on top of the basic universal coverage?
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  16. #36  
    I don' understand how one person thinks he/she can answer for not just one, but everyone.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by sblanter View Post
    I don' understand how one person thinks he/she can answer for not just one, but everyone.
    Who is that person? Bush? Roberts?
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  18. #38  
    Bush? The President? No. Who is Roberts? Anyway, no.
  19. #39  
    Should we repeal the laws that require hospitals to treat those who show up at the ER's? Should we let the indigent and uninsured die in the streets
    That which is right (correct) is not necessarily A right (compulsion).

    We need not repeal the charitable laws. However, we need not forget that it is a matter of charity.
  20. #40  
    I think aprasad is referring to Pat Robertson
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