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  1. vw2002's Avatar
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       #1  
    I was absolutely speechless. I honestly could not believe what I heard coming from the mouth of the man on the right. Either he`s a complete and utter liar, or he is deranged... Just incredible. "Saddam killed my uncle and relatives, but he is my imam, a true martyr, my master.... " I mean that is just freaking staggering, folks.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5c128f4eac
    Last edited by vw2002; 01/09/2007 at 11:53 AM.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  2. #2  
    The question is: Did the militia show up at his front door that night?
  3. #3  
    Not being stereotypical.....but only taking this clip on it's face value.....When he was saying Saddam executed his own relatives. He executed his own brother, but the way he executed his brother showed how brave Saddam was and how much of a hero he was and will be honored for generations..........I couldn't help but think of the WII movies where a family member got wrapped up in the Hitler's SS and glorified Hitler for killing their own family members.

    But moving beyond that thought.....I do think that this does show the challenges we face in bringing balance into Iraq and in the Middle East in general. I also think it shows the challenges that we as the common Americans have in relating to the mentality of the validation for killing innocent people. He was threatening to kill the other man because he had a different opinion of Saddam. He admitted his opinion was his opinion while demanding his opinion be respected while refusing to respect the other man's opinion and offered to send his militia at his door if the other man expressed his opinion that differed from his.

    People have called Bush anything from Hero to pure evil. A man of principle to worse than Hitler. From a Defender of Democracy to The World's Worst Terrorist. And that is just what has been said in Congress and the Senate, let alone the MSM, collumnists, TV shows, editorials, etc.... And how many times have you seen death threats here because someone else had a different opinion of Bush?
  4. #4  
    this was good, I have been looking for this clip I missed the live broadcast. The important part is that Sadeq Al Mosawee was exposed as an Iranian who applied for Iraqi citizenship in 2004, in he is now part of the ruling clan.
    Treoing & Loving it
  5. vw2002's Avatar
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       #5  
    Well, to me, Gt51, the fact that the other man would kill him because he held a different opinion spoke volumes about the mentality of many people in Iraq.
    That was very telling, since we are trying to build a democracy there among people who praise tyrants for slaughtering their families, who threaten death to others who disagree.

    Hobbes, I totally agree.
    Last edited by vw2002; 01/10/2007 at 12:19 AM.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002 View Post
    THAT was by FAR more important, since we are trying to build a democracy there among people who praise tyrants for slaughtering their families, who threaten death to others who disagree.
    The conditions in Iraq were known before, so why did you vote for somebody who claimed he could enforce democracy in Iraq?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  7. vw2002's Avatar
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       #7  
    I voted for Bush because I had no confidence in Kerry. I just couldn't get behind him. I realized Bush was no superstar, but felt he would have more of a desire to go after our enemies than Kerry did.
    I also thought Bush would modify the strategy in Iraq as needed based on the developing difficulties. Admittedly, I was greatly disappointed.
    When Bush replaced Rumsfeld and many of his military leaders ONLY after the democrats took the majority, I lost a great deal of confidence in him there as well. Iraq is now a mess. We are fighting not only Iraqi insurgents, but also Iranians, Syrians, and other neighboring nationalities who want to ensure failure. That is a problem that will remain no matter what order of government we leave Iraq with.
    I voted for Bush, but I am not happy with him. I can only say that I truly wish we'd have had better leaders to choose from in our presidential elections, because the options were simply awful.
    Last edited by vw2002; 01/10/2007 at 01:06 AM.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    The conditions in Iraq were known before, so why did you vote for somebody who claimed he could enforce democracy in Iraq?
    Which conditions should have caused us to expect Saddam's victim(s) would hail him as a martyr following his arrest, trial, conviction and execution?
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Which conditions should have caused us to expect Saddam's victim(s) would hail him as a martyr following his arrest, trial, conviction and execution?
    Knowledge of previous experience in similar situations (dictatorships).
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    And how many times have you seen death threats here because someone else had a different opinion of Bush?
    Never?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  11. vw2002's Avatar
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       #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    Never?
    I recall the rather suspicious death or murder of a one Mr. Vincent Foster which took place during the Clinton presidency. He was purported to have been intimately involved in the whitewater scandal, so the timing of his passing was rather suspect, no?
    Last edited by vw2002; 01/10/2007 at 10:05 AM.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    Knowledge of previous experience in similar situations (dictatorships).
    There are many examples of success and failures in establishing a democracy in former dictatorship situations. Here are some of the successes:
    • Japan
    • Germany
    • Italy
    • Portugal
    • Spain
    • Greece
    • India
    • Many of the Soviet Satellite States in varying degrees

    Is that to say that there were not years of periods of transition both domestically here in the US and in the actual countries during this time before a solidified independent gov took hold? Certainly not.

    There are also examples that the the people were not ready....Central Americas during the turn of the century comes to mind.

    I think this article in the Turkish paper makes a good point. It points out that there is a difference between a people who have only experienced a dictatorship and is trying to understand the benefits of a democracy that they have yet to fully experience and understand........versus......a people who exalts dictators and heralds them as heroes in spite of killing tens of thousands of it's own citizens. The former takes a transition period that historically has been very bloody and often times years to resolve. The other is a nearly impossible situation. No one could know which one Iraq would be before the war. And still hard to say for sure with absolute certainty now.

    With all that said.....there have been successes with Iraq but it has no bearing on the mistakes by our Administration and the new Iraqi gov that have most certainly taken place after the fall of Iraq. I have little doubt that if the former situation was true at the fall of Iraq that the mishandling of the situation can result in the second situation developing and become reality.

    But there is more than just the local population as well. It cannot be ignored that there is an underlaying international force, support, and politics from those like Syria and Iran that are encouraging the non-success of Iraq's Democracy taking hold. As well as the support and drive from terrorist groups from within and from without Iraq. All which may not speak for the majority of the Iraqi public, but may influence them over time and bloodshed.

    The question of the process from Dictatorship to Democracy is the subject of tons of books, academic papers, articles, etc... pointing to any conclusion one would want to align itself with.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 01/15/2007 at 08:58 PM.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    Knowledge of previous experience in similar situations (dictatorships).
    Which situations in the past were you specifically eluding to that would have provided definitive conclusions before we went in that Iraq could never transition from a Dictatorship to a Democracy?
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 01/15/2007 at 07:39 PM.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    There are many examples of success and failures in establishing a democracy in former dictatorship situations. Here are some of the successes:
    • Japan
    • Germany
    • Italy
    • Portugal
    • Spain
    • Greece
    • India
    • Many of the Soviet Satellite States in varying degrees
    You cannot compare those countries with Iraq. Most of the above had a democratic/pluralistic Western tradidtion before the dictatorship. Greece comes to mind, where democracy was invented. Hitler was originally elected in a democratic election, Germany was a democracy before Hitler and only had to go back to that after the war. Japan and India come from a different cultural background, but apparently one that is in favour of democracy. There is no example of a real democracy in an Arabic/Muslim country, which should be a big warning sign. I am not saying it is impossible, but democracy certainly isn't something that can be enforced with (only) 140.000 (or so) soldiers. The plan was flawed from the start and executed in an even worse way by an incompetent team living in a dream world, something which seems to be an established fact even for most neo-con hawks (see "Neo Culpa" thread).
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    Knowledge of previous experience in similar situations (dictatorships).
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    You cannot compare those countries with Iraq. Most of the above had a democratic/pluralistic Western tradidtion before the dictatorship. Greece comes to mind, where democracy was invented. Hitler was originally elected in a democratic election, Germany was a democracy before Hitler and only had to go back to that after the war. Japan and India come from a different cultural background, but apparently one that is in favour of democracy. There is no example of a real democracy in an Arabic/Muslim country, which should be a big warning sign.
    I am not sure what to respond to.......is your argument that we should have known it wouldn't work because of similar situations in the past or because there were no similar situations in the past?
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 01/16/2007 at 06:59 PM.
  16. #16  
    89% percent of the public think Sudam should not have been executed, wow, we really wen't in there fighting for the people, didn't we. But I did see how we are really the victors, we are going for the Black Gold this week.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    You cannot compare those countries with Iraq. Most of the above had a democratic/pluralistic Western tradidtion before the dictatorship. Greece comes to mind, where democracy was invented. Hitler was originally elected in a democratic election, Germany was a democracy before Hitler and only had to go back to that after the war. Japan and India come from a different cultural background, but apparently one that is in favour of democracy. There is no example of a real democracy in an Arabic/Muslim country, which should be a big warning sign. I am not saying it is impossible, but democracy certainly isn't something that can be enforced with (only) 140.000 (or so) soldiers. The plan was flawed from the start and executed in an even worse way by an incompetent team living in a dream world, something which seems to be an established fact even for most neo-con hawks (see "Neo Culpa" thread).
    Nonsense.

    1. Japan had no real democracy before 1945. It had a very long history of military autocracy. It's cultural background was similar to South Korea, which remained a dictatorship through the 70s; North Korea, which remains a communist dictatorship; and China, which is also communist.

    2. Turkey is a real democracy.

    3. After WWII, Japan had a population of about 70 million. Allied occupation forces numbered about 350,000. Iraq's population is about 26 million. Coalition forces were about 140,000. 140,000/26 million > 350,000/70 million
    (Feel free to check my #s; I'm citing from memory.)

    4. You're assuming that the Iraq was was unwinnable from the start based on the fact that the US has failed to win. But the insurgency in Iraq wasn't big from the start, and it wasn't inevitable.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by cglaguna View Post
    89% percent of the public think Sudam should not have been executed,
    89% of which public?
  19. vw2002's Avatar
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       #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    89% of which public?
    exactly. 89% of the sunni population or the WHOLE population?
    I gotta have more cowbell
  20. #20  
    I've avoided these round & round political threads for awhile but it is nice to see some things never change. Ahhhh......

    Speaking of, clulup is also mistaken about Germany. Perhaps you've never heard of the Kaiser which is the German word for King? Germany's first democracy was installed AFTER WWI by the victors of that war. It was the mechanism that led to Hitler's seizure of power. A lot of that had to do with the German people's resentment of democracy which they had never had before. This was fueled even more by the miserable economic situation that was blamed on an ineffective goverment which upheld the Treaty of Versailles paying steeply harsh war reparations. I recall there were at least 10 political parties which meant getting any legislation passed was extremely difficult and extremely slow. The situation did even resemble Iraq in that the parties did fight and kill each other in the streets but over political ideology rather than relgious. It eventually came down to the Communists vs the Nazi's which routinely killed other on a lesser. At least until Hitler became Chancellor and purged any political oppositon.

    The German people were more than happy to give all the power back to Hitler. But after WWII, democracy was successfully installed.

    Ohhhh.... and I almost forgot about the part where the Germans still found democracy after having attempted genocide killing millions.... with help from their bankers who were more than happy to stash the loot stolen from the victims & deport any of them seeking sanctuary back to the concentrations, and then used the gains to build their country and ignore returning the loot to the victims family and that was your country... Switzerland.

    I think I'll go back to the 700p threads now.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
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