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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C View Post
    I've avoided these round & round political threads for awhile but it is nice to see some things never change. Ahhhh......

    (Substantive comments deleted).

    I think I'll go back to the 700p threads now.
    Yup.
  2. vw2002's Avatar
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       #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C View Post
    I've avoided these round & round political threads for awhile but it is nice to see some things never change. Ahhhh......

    Speaking of, clulup is also mistaken about Germany. Perhaps you've never heard of the Kaiser which is the German word for King? Germany's first democracy was installed AFTER WWI by the victors of that war. It was the mechanism that led to Hitler's seizure of power. A lot of that had to do with the German people's resentment of democracy which they had never had before. This was fueled even more by the miserable economic situation that was blamed on an ineffective goverment which upheld the Treaty of Versailles paying steeply harsh war reparations. I recall there were at least 10 political parties which meant getting any legislation passed was extremely difficult and extremely slow. The situation did even resemble Iraq in that the parties did fight and kill each other in the streets but over political ideology rather than relgious. It eventually came down to the Communists vs the Nazi's which routinely killed other on a lesser. At least until Hitler became Chancellor and purged any political oppositon.

    The German people were more than happy to give all the power back to Hitler. But after WWII, democracy was successfully installed.

    Ohhhh.... and I almost forgot about the part where the Germans still found democracy after having attempted genocide killing millions.... with help from their bankers who were more than happy to stash the loot stolen from the victims & deport any of them seeking sanctuary back to the concentrations, and then used the gains to build their country and ignore returning the loot to the victims family and that was your country... Switzerland.

    I think I'll go back to the 700p threads now.
    There you have it, clulup.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    1. Japan had no real democracy before 1945. It had a very long history of military autocracy. It's cultural background was similar to South Korea, which remained a dictatorship through the 70s; North Korea, which remains a communist dictatorship; and China, which is also communist.
    "Japan and India come from a different cultural background, but apparently one that is in favour of democracy."
    2. Turkey is a real democracy.
    Turkey is not Arabic. It is also quite unique because it is defined as a secular state. However, there is considerable pressure in Turkey to move into the religious direction.
    3. After WWII, Japan had a population of about 70 million. Allied occupation forces numbered about 350,000. Iraq's population is about 26 million. Coalition forces were about 140,000. 140,000/26 million > 350,000/70 million.
    Japan surrendered following Hiroshima and Nagasaki - big difference.
    4. You're assuming that the Iraq was was unwinnable from the start based on the fact that the US has failed to win. But the insurgency in Iraq wasn't big from the start, and it wasn't inevitable.
    It may be the case that the situation was not lost from the start, but only lost due to dream world post-war planning of the incompetent Bush administration, and the absence of enough resources/troops to successfully handle post-war Iraq. The Rumsfeld doctrine which doesn't work.

    Search and destroy doesn't work against insurgents (never really did), for clear and hold there are not enough troops. A recipe for an open-ended nightmare.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    "Japan and India come from a different cultural background, but apparently one that is in favour of democracy."
    You're implying there is a causal link between Japan's cultural background and democracy, but there's no evidence of that.

    Turkey is not Arabic.
    Turkey is 99% Muslim. Some people argue that democracy cannot exist in Muslim nations, but Turkey proves that assumption wrong.

    As for Arabic, that's an ethinicity. Are you arguing that Arabs are genetically incapable of democracy? I've never heard that one before.

    Japan surrendered following Hiroshima and Nagasaki - big difference.
    Yes, we know the differences. The troops levels would have been fine in Iraq if the Administration hadn't screwed up the occupation and fueled the insurgency.

    It may be the case that the situation was not lost from the start,...
    Excellent! You're making progress.

    Search and destroy doesn't work against insurgents (never really did), for clear and hold there are not enough troops. A recipe for an open-ended nightmare.
    Political decisions fueled the insurgency, and political decisions will end the insurgency.
  5. vw2002's Avatar
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       #25  
    "Political decisions fueled the insurgency, and political decisions will end the insurgency. "

    - SAMKIM

    Pow! Right on the money.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    As for Arabic, that's an ethinicity. Are you arguing that Arabs are genetically incapable of democracy? I've never heard that one before.
    Genetic differences in humans are very small, so there certainly is no genetic reason behind democracy. Cultural differences and experiences in the recent history are far more important.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    Knowledge of previous experience in similar situations (dictatorships).
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    You cannot compare those countries with Iraq. Most of the above had a democratic/pluralistic Western tradidtion before the dictatorship. Greece comes to mind, where democracy was invented. Hitler was originally elected in a democratic election, Germany was a democracy before Hitler and only had to go back to that after the war. Japan and India come from a different cultural background, but apparently one that is in favour of democracy. There is no example of a real democracy in an Arabic/Muslim country, which should be a big warning sign.
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    I am not sure what to respond to.......is your argument that we should have known it wouldn't work because of similar situations in the past or because there were no similar situations in the past?
    Clulup, I am still interested in which way you really think. If it is the first argument that we should have learned from previous similar situations, what specific examples are you referring to as each of the examples given after this statement have been shot down by you for one reason or another.

    If it is the second, where your argument is that there no examples then couldn't that argument have been used against Turkey, Japan, India, Germany, etc.... as they each have their own unique culture?
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C View Post
    Speaking of, clulup is also mistaken about Germany. Perhaps you've never heard of the Kaiser which is the German word for King?
    Bob-C - you are mistaken about the German word `Kaiser` meaning King - it is actually meaning `Emperor`.
    The German word `König` means King.

    Other than that - great post.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    Knowledge of previous experience in similar situations (dictatorships).
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    You cannot compare those countries with Iraq. Most of the above had a democratic/pluralistic Western tradidtion before the dictatorship. Greece comes to mind, where democracy was invented. Hitler was originally elected in a democratic election, Germany was a democracy before Hitler and only had to go back to that after the war. Japan and India come from a different cultural background, but apparently one that is in favour of democracy. There is no example of a real democracy in an Arabic/Muslim country, which should be a big warning sign.
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal on 01/16/2007 View Post
    I am not sure what to respond to.......is your argument that we should have known it wouldn't work because of similar situations in the past or because there were no similar situations in the past?
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal on 01/19/2007
    Clulup, I am still interested in which way you really think. If it is the first argument that we should have learned from previous similar situations, what specific examples are you referring to as each of the examples given after this statement have been shot down by you for one reason or another.

    If it is the second, where your argument is that there no examples then couldn't that argument have been used against Turkey, Japan, India, Germany, etc.... as they each have their own unique culture?
    I guess this apparent contradiction in this argument is going to remain an unsolved mystery.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    I guess this apparent contradiction in this argument is going to remain an unsolved mystery.
    There is no contradiction here. The first quote about previous experience was in reply to Shopharim's statement that it is unexpected that even some people who had family members killed by Saddam support him - indeed that is not unheard of and probably has happened in most dictatorships (even if it is weird, irrational, cruel, whatever).

    The other statements are about something else, namely that democracy cannot be enforced by an army, it has to come from within the people of a country. Iraq with its long history of fights between Sunni, Kurds and Shiites certainly is not a a likely candidate for a transition into democracy, unless of course for people who know close to nothing about foreign cultures, such as George W. Bush.
    Last edited by clulup; 01/29/2007 at 07:34 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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