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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps View Post
    Cant be done until the is a peace agreement in place. Its very difficult to support a government financially that calls for Israels destruction and refuses to abide by past peace agreements.
    I agree, but once a peace process is in place it could help to maintain it.
  2.    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    honestly try to help palestine to grow economically- like west germany did for east germany after the fall of the berlin wall.
    I think both Israel and the Palestinians will benefit greatly from such economical enthusiasm. Having said that, however, there are still (former) East Germans who desperately try to find jobs (any jobs!) in the (former) West Germany. Initially, when a Palestinian state is born, many Palestinians will still flock into Israel to find jobs. Mexican (legal and illegal) workers do that in the US. (I am saying this because you called it : “menial jobs with little chance of advancement,” and I beg the difference.)
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by impish View Post
    I think both Israel and the Palestinians will benefit greatly from such economical enthusiasm. Having said that, however, there are still (former) East Germans who desperately try to find jobs (any jobs!) in the (former) West Germany. Initially, when a Palestinian state is born, many Palestinians will still flock into Israel to find jobs. Mexican (legal and illegal) workers do that in the US. (I am saying this because you called it : “menial jobs with little chance of advancement,” and I beg the difference.)
    Here is an interesting personal account of what it is like to be a young palestinian living in Israel.

    http://www.afsc.org/israel-palestine...Palestine.html
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    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Here is an interesting personal account of what it is like to be a young palestinian living in Israel.

    http://www.afsc.org/israel-palestine...Palestine.html
    While I feel somewhat bad she faces some discrimination living in Israel, can you imagine a jew trying to live openly in an arab country? Jewish populations in Arab countries have become just about non-existent.

    I stand by my statement, Israeli Arabs have more freedoms than people that live in any other arab country in the middle east.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps View Post
    While I feel somewhat bad she faces some discrimination living in Israel, can you imagine a jew trying to live openly in an arab country? Jewish populations in Arab countries have become just about non-existent.

    I stand by my statement, Israeli Arabs have more freedoms than people that live in any other arab country in the middle east.
    Black children are better off living in Watts than they are in Sierra Leone, but does that mean they are "doing quite well"?

    I am not trying to be provocative here, but just trying to point out that freedom does not neccessarily translate into success, especially when there is discrimination and prejudice at play. Its true for our own country as well as others.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 12/14/2006 at 02:43 PM.
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    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Black children are better off living in Watts than they are in Sierra Leone, but does that mean they are "doing quite well"?
    So if thats the case, why do you feel the need to take up the Palestinian case? If its arab, muslim, or Palestinian rights your interested in, please take alook at not just Israel. Why dont you do some internet searches on how Palestinians are treated in jordan, or how about how woman are treated across the muslim world.

    This is the main problem here. Israel is held to some higher set of rules than any other country in the middle east. You can fire missles into Israeli cities, but Israel cant shoot back. People constantly bring up the "plight" of Israeli arabs and the "2nd class citizen" comment, but totally ignore the lives in other arab countries.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps View Post
    So if thats the case, why do you feel the need to take up the Palestinian case? If its arab, muslim, or Palestinian rights your interested in, please take alook at not just Israel. Why dont you do some internet searches on how Palestinians are treated in jordan, or how about how woman are treated across the muslim world.

    This is the main problem here. Israel is held to some higher set of rules than any other country in the middle east. You can fire missles into Israeli cities, but Israel cant shoot back. People constantly bring up the "plight" of Israeli arabs and the "2nd class citizen" comment, but totally ignore the lives in other arab countries.


    There is no huge conflict because of palestinian-jordanian relations, there is a huge conflict because of palestinian-israeli relations. I realize that Israel is set to a higher standard, its too bad, its not fair. I am on Israel's side, I am a big Israeli sympathizer. I suggest these things to help Israel, as much as helping anyone else.

    Thats why I see having them provide economic assistance to the palestinians as a first step towards reconciliation is certainly better than endless fighting.

    I understand you do not think this would be an effective strategy, OK, thats fine, I accept that.
  8.    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Here is an interesting personal account of what it is like to be a young palestinian living in Israel.

    http://www.afsc.org/israel-palestine...Palestine.html
    cellmatrix, when you mentioned the Berlin Wall I assumed you were talking about Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, so my apologies. I agree with this young lady and I agree with you on this.
    I only wish that Jews who are stuck in Iran will be treated with dignity and fairness as well!

    http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2003/March/Jews/
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by impish View Post
    cellmatrix, when you mentioned the Berlin Wall I assumed you were talking about Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, so my apologies. I agree with this young lady and I agree with you on this.
    I only wish that Jews who are stuck in Iran will be treated with dignity and fairness as well!

    http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2003/March/Jews/
    I agree it is deplorable what Iran is doing, not to mention this hosting of a conference which questions the existence of the holocost.
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    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    There is no huge conflict because of palestinian-jordanian relations, there is a huge conflict because of palestinian-israeli relations. I realize that Israel is set to a higher standard, its too bad, its not fair. I am on Israel's side
    Thats my point, Palestinians arent even considered 2nd class citizens in Jordan. They are looked at as unwanted, uneducated people, that are a drain on their society. The have never really been integrated into society and live mostly in tent cities. There is no outrage, because its muslim on muslin discrimination.
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    #51  
    Amazing some of the opinions here.

    In response to TomUps question regarding my comment 3 pages ago... yes, there is a significant jewish/necon/zionist presence in DC, and they had a major hand in deciding to invade Iraq. Iraq was not about oil - we did a pretty good job of destroying any infrastructure they had. The economic truth is that we have no reason to be in the middle east AT ALL. We can get all the oil we need from far more friendly places like Canada (and until recently, Venezuela), and by having a progressive government that is serious about things like fuel economy and investing in mass transit.

    When you cut through the couldy haze of BS from the Bush administration regarding our "need" to be in the middle east to protect our economic interests, you're actually left with not much. We're there for the simple reason that Israel is a US protectorate (just like Guam, Puerto Rico et al), and if we let them rot then whoever passes that bill will never get elected again at home.

    As for the conflict itself, I find it insteresting that the Hamas proclamation itself is essentially a response to Zionism. There is a lot of "he said/she said" here, but you can hardly fault hamas for wanting Israel destroyed when all they're doing is reacting to the zionistic goal of destroying palestine for the past 100 years. A key part of this strategy is the "Law of Return", which allows any Jew or person with Jewish parents, born anywhere on the planet, the right to citizenship in Israel - i.e. more basic rights than are afforded to most Palestinians. Until such basic apartheid-style laws are removed, no-one can take the zionist/pro-Israel movement seriously on the worlds stage. yes, sure, the Palestinians are doing a particullarly bloody job of getting their case onto the world stage (as did the IRA in northern Ireland in the 60s-90s), but given the attitude of the Israeli government, what alternatives do they have?
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps View Post
    Thats my point, Palestinians arent even considered 2nd class citizens in Jordan. They are looked at as unwanted, uneducated people, that are a drain on their society. The have never really been integrated into society and live mostly in tent cities. There is no outrage, because its muslim on muslin discrimination.
    If your implying that because Jordanians discriminate then its OK for Israel and every one else to too, I disagree. The palestinian-jordanian discrimination is causing no significant bloodshed, while palestinian-Israeli conflict is causing huge bloodshed? For you to say that we should give each equal attention makes no sense at all.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by PSB22 View Post
    Amazing some of the opinions here.
    Indeed
    Quote Originally Posted by PSB22 View Post
    ....you can hardly fault hamas for wanting Israel destroyed when all they're doing is reacting to the zionistic goal of destroying palestine for the past 100 years. A key part of this strategy is the "Law of Return", which allows any Jew or person with Jewish parents, born anywhere on the planet, the right to citizenship in Israel - i.e. more basic rights than are afforded to most Palestinians. Until such basic apartheid-style laws are removed, no-one can take the zionist/pro-Israel movement seriously on the worlds stage. yes, sure, the Palestinians are doing a particullarly bloody job of getting their case onto the world stage (as did the IRA in northern Ireland in the 60s-90s), but given the attitude of the Israeli government, what alternatives do they have?
    This is one of the most amazing.

    If I read correctly, you declare that an Isreali policy, providing Israeli citizenship to descendants of Jews ("Israelites") is unjustifiable. But murderous "PRPRPR $Campaigns$&$quot$; $by$ $Hamas$ $are$ $not$ $only$ $justifiable$ $but$ $are$ $the$ $only$ $alternative$.

    And by extention of the reasoning:

    1. Is the US policy of granting citizenship to anyone born here as well as to those who were born elsewhere but whose parents are citizens any less apartheidic? Are people born outside the US justified in illegally entering the US and demanding goods, services and rights given the US government's attitude?
    2. Given the US government's attitude about liberty and democracy, does Al Qaeda have no other alternative but the murder of innocent people

    NOTE: I am not saying you said this. I am applying the reasoning to other social/political circumstances in hopes understanding a rationale that seems ludicrous to me.
  14.    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by PSB22 View Post
    As for the conflict itself, I find it insteresting that the Hamas proclamation itself is essentially a response to Zionism. There is a lot of "he said/she said" here, but you can hardly fault hamas for wanting Israel destroyed when all they're doing is reacting to the zionistic goal of destroying palestine for the past 100 years.
    I am not sure to what history you are referring to. In fact, this is a very opinionated history that yields very little facts or reasoning. It also ignores some basic Jewish history and rights.
    If you want to pick a bone with the "Law of Return," ask yourself what Muslim country will allow Jews to settle in it? Ask also what rights Jews have in those countries?
    That Israel needs to treat its Palestinian citizens better: surely! (By the way, there are Knesset members who are Palestinians; tell me how many Jews are serving as law makers in Muslim countries?) That Israel needs to negotiate a peace treaty with the Palestinians: Absolutely! But get your history in order please.
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    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by PSB22 View Post
    Amazing some of the opinions here.

    In response to TomUps question regarding my comment 3 pages ago... yes, there is a significant jewish/necon/zionist presence in DC, and they had a major hand in deciding to invade Iraq.
    Any proof whatsoever? Please show us. You do know that....
    President - not jewish
    Vice President - not jewish
    Secretary of State - not jewish
    Secretary of Defense - not jewish
    Top Military Generals - not jewish

    You have to give it to the jews then, if your theories are correct, even with such small numbers, their total dominence of world politics, media, and ofcourse entertainment is astounding.

    Quote Originally Posted by PSB22 View Post
    As for the conflict itself, I find it insteresting that the Hamas proclamation itself is essentially a response to Zionism. There is a lot of "he said/she said" here, but you can hardly fault hamas for wanting Israel destroyed when all they're doing is reacting to the zionistic goal of destroying palestine for the past 100 years.
    I fault Hamas for targeting babies and children with bombs, I fault Hamas for leading their own people down a path of destruction instead of peace.

    Quote Originally Posted by PSB22 View Post
    A key part of this strategy is the "Law of Return", which allows any Jew or person with Jewish parents, born anywhere on the planet, the right to citizenship in Israel - i.e. more basic rights than are afforded to most Palestinians.
    Again, if your so interested in Palestinian rights, take a long look at how Palestinians are treated in other Arab countries. If your not willing to hold these countries up to the same standards your holding Israel to, then you must except you have a biased view towards the whole topic.
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    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    If your implying that because Jordanians discriminate then its OK for Israel and every one else to too, I disagree. The palestinian-jordanian discrimination is causing no significant bloodshed, while palestinian-Israeli conflict is causing huge bloodshed? For you to say that we should give each equal attention makes no sense at all.
    No, Im not implying that at all. I'm saying that if your so interested in Palestinian rights, please hold up the other Arab countries to the same standards you hold Israel to. Why dont we ever see any post about the inhumane treatment Palestinians currently recieve in Jordan?
  17.    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps View Post
    Why dont we ever see any post about the inhumane treatment Palestinians currently recieve in Jordan?
    Or Kuwait. Or Iraq. Or Libya.

    http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/arab...estinians.html
    http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/erc/briefi.../9103/042.html
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    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    If you think I am ignoring arab discrimination of Jews, look at post 49 in this thread. Here, I will quote my previous statement.
    Im not even talking about discrimination of jews, Im talking about arab discrimination of Palestinians living in other arab countries. Check it out, you might be surprised that they are sometimes treated far worse in these countries, than they do by Israel.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps View Post
    No, Im not implying that at all. I'm saying that if your so interested in Palestinian rights, please hold up the other Arab countries to the same standards you hold Israel to. Why dont we ever see any post about the inhumane treatment Palestinians currently recieve in Jordan?
    If you think I am ignoring arab discrimination of Jews, look at post 49.

    edited and reposted sorry
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps View Post
    Im not even talking about discrimination of jews, Im talking about arab discrimination of Palestinians living in other arab countries. Check it out, you might be surprised that they are sometimes treated far worse in these countries, than they do by Israel.
    Tom I am sorry I missed that. Anyway, I would be glad to check out sources if you can supply some because I would be interested in learning more about this, just for my own interest.

    From a purely humanistic point of view both types of discrimination are clearly bad whether in Israel or Jordan. From a practical standpoint, when we are talking about what threatens US interests, the jordaninan-palestinian friction is not risking WW III, but Israeli-palestinian friction is. There's a difference there, no? That is the point I was making.
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