Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 91
  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps View Post
    Here, lets settle this whole thing now.

    Israel - go back to 1967 borders (except jewish part of jerusalem, and maybe the Golan Heights). Build very large wall around your country.

    Palestinians - recognize Israels right to exist. Remove from charter any references to Israels destruction. Establish Palestine in Gaza and all of Westbank.

    Arab States - stop invading Israel, or stop supporting (with guns or finanaces) terrorist groups that attack israel.


    There we go...wheres my noble peace prize?
    I agree and have stated much the same thing here in the past several times.....but here are some of the interesting points to overcome:

    Israel: Clinton already had Israel offer 90% of what you posted. Arafat refused the deal. Israel have refused to offer it again to date. Israel will only resist so much before reacting to attacks, and the terrorists know this is a quick fuse to end possible peace when it comes close to happening. Israel would have to humble itself to concede many of the demands that Palestine has put forth (and forget much of the past grudges).

    Palestine: The land and complete self governing is only a portion of their goal. The total destruction of Israel is a major part of their goals. They would have forgo this goal and forget much of the past grudges as well.

    Arab States: Very challenging when in their view Israel stands against many of their fundamental beliefs. Iran will not even recognize the reality of history of the Holocaust and continually campaigns openly for Israel to be wiped from the map. Funding / supporting / harboring / using terrorist groups for political gain has become a political staple in the national politics and international politics in and between many Arab states....to the point of the possibility of not being reversible but only replaceable. (I am not promoting any means with this statement, just an observation of what -not how- may need to happen to accomplish the stated goal).
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 12/13/2006 at 03:42 PM.
  2. TomUps's Avatar
    Posts
    22 Posts
    Global Posts
    28 Global Posts
    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    I agree and have stated much the same thing here in the past several times.....but here are some of the interesting points to overcome:

    Israel: Clinton already had Israel offer 90% of what you posted. Arafat refused the deal. Israel have refused to offer it again to date. Israel will only resist so much before reacting to attacks, and the terrorists know this is a quick fuse to end possible peace when it comes close to happening. Israel would have to humble itself to concede many of the demands that Palestine has put forth (and forget much of the past grudges).

    Palestine: The land and complete self governing is only a portion of their goal. The total destruction of Israel is a major part of their goals. They would have forgo this goal and forget much of the past grudges as well.

    Arab States: Very challenging when in their view Israel stands against many of their fundamental beliefs. Iran will not even recognize the reality of history of the Holocaust and continually campaigns openly for Israel to be wiped from the map. Funding / supporting / harboring / using terrorist groups for political gain has become a political staple in the national politics and international politics in and between many Arab states....to the point of the possibility of not being reversible but only replaceable. (I am not promoting any means with this statement, just an observation of what -not how- may need to happen to accomplish the stated goal).
    I didnt say it would actually happen. Some of the Palestinian terrorist organizations would never abide to a cease fire or peace agreement even if Israel went back to the 1967 borders. Countries that sponser these groups would never allow it (Iran). If citizens of the Arab world didnt have Israel to hate, the might wake up and realize their own governments are some of the most oppressive in the world.
  3. #23  
    I lived in Israel for 8 years, and served 3 years in the Military. Aside from all the other issues about this being a 2 sided issue (a tiny country that is a true democracy versus fanatics in dictatorships)

    Palestinians did quite well before Arafat was allowed back under the Oslo Peace Accords. There were very few checkpoints, and thousands of Palestinians worked in Israel. Then Arafat and his crew decided to reject the peace offerings of Israel at Camp David and launched the Intifada (which he actually planned on doing anyway.) So, Israel cannot afford to allow the Palestinians to work in Israel, it has to set up walls and checkpoints to protect its civilians from the daily terror attacks. So, what do the Palestinians do, even after Israel evacuates Gaza?

    Why, elect Hamas whose clear and stated aim is the destruction of Israel, backed by Iran and Syria. Launch rockets at Israeli civilians EVERY SINGLE DAY. So, the Palestinian economy is non-existent, there is death and destruction, now they are killing each other, and the lunatics in Iran keep cheering them on to "MARTYRDOM" No one in the Palestinian world can speak out and protest about the path they are being led or they will be eliminated.

    Carter is full of crap. Its not about the occupation, or there would not have been the 6 day war in 1967. I remember prior to that war the mobs in Cairo screaming "Itbach Al Yahud" Slaughter the Jews. This was before any territory was occupied.

    The real issues are somewhat complex, but I can lay out a few here.

    The Arab world refused to accept the UN decision on a 2 state solution in 1948 and chose to try to gain by war what they could not by diplomacy. They lost, since the Jews, many of whom had just undergone the trauma of the Holocaust, refused to roll over and die. Now the Palestinians claim to be victims.

    The Arab world uses the Palestinian issue to deflect attention from their corrupt regimes. They also fear the spread of democracy, Israeli style

    Irans lunatics want an Islamic Caliphate ruling the world, and eliminating Israel in the Middle East is part of that plan.



    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I believe I am on the same page as you about this. I absolutely feel Israel has the right to defend itself against all of its hostile neighbors, and we are one of the only friends it can truly count on. At the same time, Israel could do some things better itself, including treating Palestinians in its country like first class rather than second class citizens. That would go a long way towards winning more respect from moderate arabs. That may be what Carter was referring to, although I must admit, probably like all of you, I have not yet read the book.
    PDA Lineage: Sharp Wizard, PalmVx, Tungsten, Treo 650, Treo 750v
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    substitute democracy for dictatorship in Palestine and what do you get, something even worse - Hamas in charge. Democracy in and of itself does not solve deep seated resentments. Look at Iraq. How naiive it was for us to think that democracy was the solution to their problems too.
    Democracy is only PART of any solution....NOT the whole of the solution. The success of Democracy is subject to wide range of influences including (but certainly not limited to) threats at the polls, terrorists local influence, the will of the people, education of the citizens voting, wisdom of the majority, etc.... All of these have to be weighed and addressed when focusing on the success or failure of Democracy and all of which take time to address.

    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    If you think taking all the menial jobs with little chance of advancement is "doing quite well", then thats your call. This is an economic struggle as much as it is a political or religious struggle. Its the same in Iraq, where its a struggle for control of money and natural resources.
    Cell....I am sincerely interested in where you place the goal of not stopping until Israel is completely wiped out...economic, political, or religious.
  5. #25  
    hobbes sorry I was making an addition and reposting.

    Quote Originally Posted by naftalim View Post
    I lived in Israel for 8 years, and served 3 years in the Military. Aside from all the other issues about this being a 2 sided issue (a tiny country that is a true democracy versus fanatics in dictatorships)
    substitute democracy for dictatorship in Palestine and what do you get, something even worse - Hamas in charge. Democracy in and of itself does not solve deep seated resentments. Look at Iraq. How naiive it was for us to think that democracy was the solution to their problems too.

    Quote Originally Posted by naftalim View Post
    Palestinians did quite well before Arafat was allowed back
    If you think taking all the menial jobs with little chance of advancement is "doing quite well", then thats your call. What drives the power of Hamas and the other lunatic fanatics with the Palestinian people is their obvious economic disparities and the resentment that comes from it. So this is an economic struggle as much as it is a political or religious struggle. Its the same in Iraq, where its a struggle for control of money and natural resources.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Democracy is only PART of any solution....NOT the whole of the solution. The success of Democracy is subject to wide range of influences including (but certainly not limited to) threats at the polls, terrorists local influence, the will of the people, education of the citizens voting, wisdom of the majority, etc.... All of these have to be weighed and addressed when focusing on the success or failure of Democracy and all of which take time to address.

    Cell....I am sincerely interested in where you place the goal of not stopping until Israel is completely wiped out...economic, political, or religious.
    not stopping as a goal? I am not sure what you are asking Hobbes.
  7. #27  
    The Hamas charter calls for the total destruction of Israel.
    The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

    "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

    "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

    "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

    "After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

    http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
    You mentioned "This is an economic struggle as much as it is a political or religious struggle." I was curious where you classify this aspect of the Hamas charter within the struggle against Israel....economic, political or religious.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    The Hamas charter calls for the total destruction of Israel.

    You mentioned "This is an economic struggle as much as it is a political or religious struggle." I was curious where you classify this aspect of the Hamas charter within the struggle against Israel....economic, political or religious.
    OK you mean the goal of Hamas (and other Syrian/Iranian assisted terrorist organizations) not stopping until they wipe Israel from the face of the earth. Do you actually think that this is what all arabs want? If you do, then you really have a cynical attittude.

    I could be wrong but I see the power of the fanatics like Hamas driven in large part by the economic hoplessness of the current situation for the majority of Palestinians. Continuing to drive economic ruin upon these people by bombing them to rubble will just increase the terrorist ranks with former moderates driven to more and more desperate measures.

    The fanatics will not stop, even with the bombing we are doing. But the moderates who are just tagging along for posssible economic benefit and a better life will stop if it looks like the grass might be greener on our side. Maybe you think all arabs are fanatics, I hope not, but I believe that there are a whole lot of moderates, who make up the majority. Give them a hope for a better life and it will make a big difference. It will make a big difference in Iraq too.
  9. #29  
    I was talking about Hamas.....not all Arabs. I thought naming Hamas and quoting their specific charter would have helped to convey that. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

    Hamas (along with HZ and Iran) have openly stated and their goal is to obliterate at all costs and for however long it takes. This a valid point to address when talking about the Israel struggle as their actions in trying to accomplish this goal has a direct effect on the moderate Arabs who may not share their same perspective.

    Hamas / HZ (backed by Syria and Iran) attack Israel and then hide in neighboring territories or countries among the innocents in those areas. Israel then retaliates. Where do they strike? Where they are hiding. Where are they hiding? Among homes and businesses of other Arabs. It is a big circle with more than enough blame of the economic challenges on the terrorist groups and their tactics as it is on Israel's reaction to them.
  10. TomUps's Avatar
    Posts
    22 Posts
    Global Posts
    28 Global Posts
    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    If you think taking all the menial jobs with little chance of advancement is "doing quite well", then thats your call. What drives the power of Hamas and the other lunatic fanatics with the Palestinian people is their obvious economic disparities and the resentment that comes from it. So this is an economic struggle as much as it is a political or religious struggle. Its the same in Iraq, where its a struggle for control of money and natural resources.
    Why must Israel ensure that every Palestinians has a decent job and paycheck? The Palestinians want their own country, but they also want almost open borders with Israel so the can work inside.

    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    OK you mean the goal of Hamas (and other Syrian/Iranian assisted terrorist organizations) not stopping until they wipe Israel from the face of the earth. Do you actually think that this is what all arabs want? If you do, then you really have a cynical attittude.
    Have you ever been to the middle east? Try picking up a newspaper in Egypt, or watch the news in Saudi Arabia and you will be very surprised what you see. 24 hour "news" stations showing hate mongers preaching about evil jews and americans. Be carefull before you accuse anyone of being "cynical".

    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I could be wrong but I see the power of the fanatics like Hamas driven in large part by the economic hoplessness of the current situation for the majority of Palestinians.
    Why should the U.S. or Israel give any money to a government run by people that are sworn to their destruction. They hate Israel so much, they would rather watch their children starve then except Israels right to exist. No one is saying Hamas cant run Palestine, what they are saying is we wont fund you to do it. Let the Arab countries step up and support Hamas financially then. I think they did pretty well this year in oil money.

    One more thing cell, Israeli Arabs have more freedoms than people that live in any other Arab country in the world. The can vote as they please, work for whoever they want, dress the way they want, and practice any religion they want. My company employs many Israeli Arabs, and I dont think many of them consider themselves "second class citizens".
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    I was talking about Hamas.....not all Arabs. I thought naming Hamas and quoting their specific charter would have helped to convey that. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

    Hamas (along with HZ and Iran) have openly stated and their goal is to obliterate at all costs and for however long it takes. This a valid point to address when talking about the Israel struggle as their actions in trying to accomplish this goal has a direct effect on the moderate Arabs who may not share their same perspective.

    Hamas / HZ (backed by Syria and Iran) attack Israel and then hide in neighboring territories or countries among the innocents in those areas. Israel then retaliates. Where do they strike? Where they are hiding. Where are they hiding? Among homes and businesses of other Arabs. It is a big circle with more than enough blame of the economic challenges on the terrorist groups and their tactics as it is on Israel's reaction to them.
    You imply that retaliation can only hurt Hamas. Actually call me crazy, but I think that retaliation is what Hamas actually wants. They want to make Israel look bad, especially when its a sloppy retaliation with women and children casualties. More bombing means more desperation among moderate arabs, more sympathy with the fanatics, more recruits, and more friendly houses to hide in.

    Al Queda wants the retaliation too. Why do you think Bin Ladin put out a tape just before the 2004 election, which served to increase the support for President Bush. Do you think Bin Ladin is stupid, he's evil as hell but he's not stupid. He knows that Bush's policy is contributing to the instability in Iraq which is strengthing Al Queda, and providing them with more recruits, more volunteers for suicide bombers, more sympathy from the Arab world as the US is portrayed as an occupier rather than a liberator. Without a desparate struggle these fanatics have no base to draw from. Its a key point that Bush still does not appear willing to admit.

    Sure Israel, and Iraqis need to fight terrorists, and sure Iran and Syria are playing a big role in supporting them. Of course they want to move into the power vacuum left if Israel or the current Iraq government falls. Obviously we need to help prevent that from happening. But the stick alone without any carrot is just going to make the horse more mean. Its the hope of economic prosperity in the future which will win moderates to our side. Right now neither the moderate Iraqis nor the Palestinians see anything positive from us except the threat of continued occupation.

    Look at History. After WWI, there was economic hardship in Germany imposed by the US and its european allies. The people got desperate and what did that lead to? A fanatic named Hitler winning their support and going on to wreak havoc that almost destroyed the world.

    After WWII, we took the opposite approach of the Marshall plan and helped to build up Japan and Germany, our former enemies. It cost some money but in the long run, it gave us some strong allies and some economic returns.

    edited to add: Hobbes I do see that you meant Hamas with your statement not the majority of the arabs. I hope you can forgive my error here, you see there are many people, even here on TC, who seem to confuse the rantings of the terrorists with the views of arabs as a whole.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 12/13/2006 at 08:54 PM. Reason: to apologize to Hobbes
  12. TomUps's Avatar
    Posts
    22 Posts
    Global Posts
    28 Global Posts
    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    After WWII, we took the opposite approach of the Marshall plan and helped to build up Japan and Germany, our former enemies. It cost some money but in the long run, it gave us some strong allies and some economic returns.
    At that time Japan and Germany didnt want to kill us anymore, at that time Japan and Germany didnt call for our destruction anymore, at that time Japan and Germany didnt advocate blowing up child in resturants by suicide bombers. Cant quite call it similar circumstances.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps View Post
    Have you ever been to the middle east? Try picking up a newspaper in Egypt, or watch the news in Saudi Arabia and you will be very surprised what you see. 24 hour "news" stations showing hate mongers preaching about evil jews and americans. Be carefull before you accuse anyone of being "cynical".
    I have not been to the middle east to the extent that you probably have tom and I do appreciate your experienced view here. But I hear a lot of hate mongering in our own country too, left and right, we get swept up in it. Sometimes in off topics its like we have mini-Rush Limbaughs and mini-Michael Moore's just spewing what they have been programed to spew. I agree with you that Al Jazeera does appear to be a ubiquitous and strong influence in the arab world. It appears to be the voice of the arab street as Thomas Friedman is fond of saying. But as long as there are plenty of arab people dying, women and children especially, then there will be lots for those propogandists to work with.


    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps View Post
    Why should the U.S. or Israel give any money to a government run by people that are sworn to their destruction. They hate Israel so much, they would rather watch their children starve then except Israels right to exist. No one is saying Hamas cant run Palestine, what they are saying is we wont fund you to do it. Let the Arab countries step up and support Hamas financially then. I think they did pretty well this year in oil money.
    That is the problem, the terrorists are being supported by arab countries, namely Iran and Syria.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps View Post
    One more thing cell, Israeli Arabs have more freedoms than people that live in any other Arab country in the world. The can vote as they please, work for whoever they want, dress the way they want, and practice any religion they want. My company employs many Israeli Arabs, and I dont think many of them consider themselves "second class citizens".
    Thanks for sharing your personal experience there too Tom. I do appreciate that Palestinians in Israel are better off than Palestinians in Gaza and the west bank, where there is massive unemployment and massive unrest and where not coincidentally, all the terrorists hang out. Sure I do not expect that Israel should try to support the Palestinian state on its own shoulders and I dont expect the US to either. But as the US moves towards a "new strategy" I hope that we can at least recognize that economic factors play a big role, and that tit for tat retaliation has a downside.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 12/13/2006 at 09:00 PM.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps View Post
    At that time Japan and Germany didnt want to kill us anymore, at that time Japan and Germany didnt call for our destruction anymore, at that time Japan and Germany didnt advocate blowing up child in resturants by suicide bombers. Cant quite call it similar circumstances.
    Yes you are right again Tom. It was a bad comparison. How we entered the conflicts probably also contributed to the difference between the positive aftermath of WWII and negative aftermath of Iraq.

    Its understandable that in a war like WWII with a clear reason for our actions (we were attacked) a country's population could understand why we were there and hail us as liberators. You are right this is different from Iraq where there was a pre-emptive invasion with unclear and changing reasons for our actions, thus it is understandable that the country's population could view us with more suspicion considering whether we might just be occupiers looking for some easy natural resources. I kind of wonder about that latter scenario myself sometimes, so I don't blame the Iraqi people for being suspicious too.

    At any rate, however it started, as we are looking at the way out from here, I think we could use the economic carrot more effectively at this point. Certainly Iran and Syria see the utility of the economic carrot, why cant we beat them at their own game?
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    You imply that retaliation can only hurt Hamas. Actually call me crazy, but I think that retaliation is what Hamas actually wants. They want to make Israel look bad, especially when its a sloppy retaliation with women and children casualties. More bombing means more desperation among moderate arabs, more sympathy with the fanatics, more recruits, and more friendly houses to hide in.

    Al Queda wants the retaliation too.
    I think you missed my point.....and I agree with this statement 100%.

    My point was that Hamas and HZ tactics of using apartment buildings for rocket launching stations, keeping ammunition depots in the basement of local businesses or mosques, etc.... are done with the sole premeditated purpose of trying to get Israel to kill the terrorist's innocent fellow countrymen as if they are pawns in for the terrorists own personal gain. They act with the purpose and hope of hurting the local citizens on both sides.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 12/13/2006 at 10:53 PM.
  16. #36  
    if that was your point - sorry I missed it but I agree.
  17.    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    If you think taking all the menial jobs with little chance of advancement is "doing quite well", then thats your call....So this is an economic struggle as much as it is a political or religious struggle...
    You describe precisely how Palestinians lived under Egyptian and Jordanian rule prior to 1967.
    Further more, what are you suggesting exactly? That Palestinians will hold CEO jobs in Israel proper?
  18. #38  
    yes and has gaza changed significantly since then?
  19. #39  
    honestly try to help palestine to grow economically- like west germany did for east germany after the fall of the berlin wall.
  20. TomUps's Avatar
    Posts
    22 Posts
    Global Posts
    28 Global Posts
    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    honestly try to help palestine to grow economically- like west germany did for east germany after the fall of the berlin wall.
    Cant be done until the is a peace agreement in place. Its very difficult to support a government financially that calls for Israels destruction and refuses to abide by past peace agreements.
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions