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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35 View Post
    Ah - I suppose that is why Rumsfield and Wolfowitz never listened to Batiste or Shinseki.
    Batiste was passed over for promotion by Rumsfeld, and then started his tirade AFTER he retired. Another profile in courage.

    Shinseki was right, and wrong. It would have been great to have had the same size force we used in GWI, but that force structure no longer exists. It was turned into the "Peace Dividend".

    If we had committed that force level, who would have relieved those guys, and what units would have been available for other contingencies? One third in, One third training to deploy, one third rebuilding...and another third already deployed to other contingency areas.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever View Post
    Batiste was passed over for promotion by Rumsfeld, and then started his tirade AFTER he retired. Another profile in courage.
    I thought it was military tradition to NOT give personal opinions publicly (or launch tirades) while still in service?
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob G View Post
    Here is a little hint about basic people skills: Personal attacks and insults are a very effective way to ensure that you utterly and consistently fail to convince your audience to even listen to your points of view (no matter how valid), let alone change anyone's opinion.
    welcome to the world of Offtopics in TC!

    What you say is true when you're dealing with rational people who have at least the semblance of an open mind.

    If you browse thru these forums you'll soon realize that many of the "regulars" here (with few exceptions) have blind fanatical opinions that no amount of fact-based or logical arguments can change.

    If you take the trouble to read some of my earlier posts (e.g. global warming, evolution) you'll see that I tried the calm rational approach to no avail. Instead I had my words twisted by semantic wh0res (you know who are) who in turn accused me of distorting facts or belittled my english skills or would quote worthless blogs or partisan thinktank reports to make their points. The good news is that the "Ignore" function works very well.

    But there are a few genuinely interesting points of view that I value (even if I don't agree with them) and sometimes a provocative salvo is a good way to separate the wheat from the chaff. And I do indulge in guilty pleasure to see how predictably some of the fanatics rise to the bait.

    As an example - you will see certain people ignore the major issues or arguments but will instead pick on some minor point and relentlessly attack that issue.
    Last edited by chillig35; 11/18/2006 at 11:50 AM.
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    Chillig,
    I thought you were avoiding me...
    Precisely - I don't like to waste my time on someone who not only has a totally closed mind, but resorts to personal attacks or insults to score meaningless points. I have no problem having a lively discussion with someone who has a different point of view as long as they are honest and decent - and the worst is that we agree to disagree (for example - my debates with HobbesIsReal). But you sir, are not worthy of dialogue and I'm sure that there are others (such as cellmatrix) who agree with me.
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35 View Post
    I thought it was military tradition to NOT give personal opinions publicly (or launch tirades) while still in service?
    Yes. But if he had such grave concerns, he should have RESIGNED, not retired, and voiced them. Instead he got passed over, retired, and then "whinged", as my Australian colleagues call it.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever View Post
    Yes. But if he had such grave concerns, he should have RESIGNED, not retired, and voiced them. Instead he got passed over, retired, and then "whinged", as my Australian colleagues call it.
    In any case you folks over there are doing a terrific job in spite of all the whining and *****ing. I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like and I do hope that you can make it a better world there.
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35 View Post
    welcome to the world of Offtopics in TC!

    What you say is true when you're dealing with rational people who have at least the semblance of an open mind.

    If you browse thru these forums you'll soon realize that many of the "regulars" here (with few exceptions) have blind fanatical opinions that no amount of fact-based or logical arguments can change.

    If you take the trouble to read some of my earlier posts (e.g. global warming, evolution) you'll see that I tried the calm rational approach to no avail. Instead I had my words twisted by semantic wh0res (you know who are) who in turn accused me of distorting facts or belittled my english skills or would quote worthless blogs or partisan thinktank reports to make their points. The good news is that the "Ignore" function works very well.

    But there are a few genuinely interesting points of view that I value (even if I don't agree with them) and sometimes a provocative salvo is a good way to separate the wheat from the chaff. And I do indulge in guilty pleasure to see how predictably some of the fanatics rise to the bait.

    As an example - you will see certain people ignore the major issues or arguments but will instead pick on some minor point and relentlessly attack that issue.
    Hmmmmmm....with all of our discussions in the past.....I wonder which side of your fence I fall on??

    BTW.....Rhetorical Question =)

    I personally have enjoyed our conversations in the past. Even though we mostly don't agree we have been open to discussion our different points of view
    .
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35 View Post
    Precisely - I don't like to waste my time on someone who not only has a totally closed mind, but resorts to personal attacks or insults to score meaningless points. I have no problem having a lively discussion with someone who has a different point of view as long as they are honest and decent - and the worst is that we agree to disagree (for example - my debates with HobbesIsReal). But you sir, are not worthy of dialogue and I'm sure that there are others (such as cellmatrix) who agree with me.
    yes, I agree in this case as I have activated the ignore function for the first time ever here. I never really thought I would do that as I actually enjoy hearing the conservative views here.

    In fact, I used to feel that this forum should not have moderation at all. I actually boycotted this forum for about 6 months last year after what I felt was unfair censoring of our more conservative members Woof.

    But the moderation seems to have become less heavy handed and the interesting well thought out conversations and the collegiality of this place brought me back.

    And now, I am in favor of some degree of moderation around here. I guess first hand experience can really change your mind. No one is perfect, certainly not me, but when I get too worked up with my opinion to the point that I get callous, I do try to step back and look at what I am saying, and when I do, I try to make amends. If someone does not have that attitude, but rather insists on attacking endlessly, it really does call for some intervention.

    At any rate, personal attacks are not enough to drive me away. I like the TC community here and I will continue to contribute. I hope it is the same with you.
  9.    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever View Post
    The organizations you mention, the militias, AQIZ, etc. don't operate in a void. They need support from the local population. That same population watches the debate in this country and hears our politicians describe American soldiers as terrorists, speak of impeaching the president and defunding the war. And they remember our empty promise of support in
    1991. They are the "hearts and minds", and when they see us weak, when they suspect that we are not committed, who do you think they support? That is what has made this task so difficult, not the violence of the insurgents.
    You are mixing cause and effect: You claim the war is going bad because support is waning, while in fact support is waning because the war is going bad.

    The war has been going bad since "mission accomplished", when there was still full support for Bush. The reason for the war going bad is simple: reality isn't the way Bush, Rumsfeld and Co. thought.
    Last edited by clulup; 11/19/2006 at 01:29 PM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  10.    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever View Post
    Shinseki was right, and wrong. It would have been great to have had the same size force we used in GWI, but that force structure no longer exists.
    Only nobody had told Bush junior about this, and Rumsfeld, in his arrogance, thought it didn't matter. So they went to war anyway.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    The war has been going bad since "mission accomplished", when there was still full support for Bush. The reason for the war going bad is simple: reality isn't the way Bush, Rumsfeld and Co. thought.
    Exactly. The NeoCons were convinced in their plan and it's results. Once reality didn't shape their beliefs, they just couldn't accept it. They never listened to any differing opinions regardless of the expertise or experience of the source and they surrounded themselves with people that would tell them what they wanted to hear.

    If I were in the military in Iraq, I would be pissed at these guys.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Exactly. The NeoCons were convinced in their plan and it's results. Once reality didn't shape their beliefs, they just couldn't accept it. They never listened to any differing opinions regardless of the expertise or experience of the source and they surrounded themselves with people that would tell them what they wanted to hear.

    If I were in the military in Iraq, I would be pissed at these guys.
    Kissenger says Iraq is unwinnable too.
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061120/...iraq_kissinger
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Hmmmmmm....with all of our discussions in the past.....I wonder which side of your fence I fall on??

    BTW.....Rhetorical Question =)


    I personally have enjoyed our conversations in the past. Even though we mostly don't agree we have been open to discussion our different points of view.
    what fence?

    but seriously I must say Hobbes, I've never read a post of yours which I found distasteful, even if I didn't agree with your POV. Don't let this go to your head though .......
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  14. #54  
    Here's the Iraq Study Group's report, in case anyone is interested...
    http://www.usip.org/isg/iraq_study_g...oup_report.pdf

    It's interesting how Bush made sure that this was positioned as "one of many inputs" so he's not forced to do everything the group recommends.
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