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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    This sad story doesn't need to be worsened by people coming forward and making silly blanket statements like "competely heterosexual" or "cured". He's out of the leadership role and that's good. If people want to turn this into a Christian propaganda message it should be that he's human like the rest of us, he struggles like the rest of us, and he needs God's Grace like the rest of us.
    Haggard himself is the one that made that statement weeks ago when he stated he and his wife where going to get online Psych graduate degrees (oh, that is SO dripping with irony).


    The people that need the christian god's graces are the ones demonized by the right wing for political gain. That is why sane individuals rejoice when this type of hypocrisy comes out.
  2. #42  
    Yeah, I don't quite get why they asked him to leave town. Although I can understand asking him to leave the church, at least temporarily, and seek counsel--especially if there are victims in the church.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Haggard himself is the one that made that statement weeks ago when he stated he and his wife where going to get online Psych graduate degrees (oh, that is SO dripping with irony).


    The people that need the christian god's graces are the ones demonized by the right wing for political gain. That is why sane individuals rejoice when this type of hypocrisy comes out.
    Sorry, daT. Call me insane but I don't think its proper to rejoice in anyone's misery. One can feel vindicated or even statisfied to a certain level. But joy? I don't see it.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    Sorry, daT. Call me insane but I don't think its proper to rejoice in anyone's misery. One can feel vindicated or even statisfied to a certain level. But joy? I don't see it.
    Conceded. Caffeine not doing it's job this morning. "vindicated" is a much better word for what I was trying to relate.
  5.    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    Yeah, I don't quite get why they asked him to leave town.
    I get it loud and clear, his church wants to use Haggard to portray the message that homosexuality can be cured, while privately they fear that Haggard is not cured, and still represents a danger to the community.


    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    Although I can understand asking him to leave the church, at least temporarily, and seek counsel--especially if there are victims in the church.
    According to the church and Haggard, the only person Haggard had sex with was the gay hooker, so I dont see other local victims here. But who knows.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    According to the church and Haggard, the only person Haggard had sex with was the gay hooker, so I dont see other local victims here.
    I was thinking more of his family but, apparently, he's not been estranged.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    yes I agree, if according to his church "he is cured" then why are they still running him out of town?

    Like Keefer said earlier, where is the forgiveness? - well I don't see any in this story.
    What do you think forgiveness would look like in this situation?
  8.    #48  
    There are a great many ways to be forgiving, shopharim, but forcing someone out of his town and his church is not one of them.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    There are a great many ways to be forgiving, shopharim, but forcing someone out of his town and his church is not one of them.
    Is it possible, that he and his family may be better positioned for restoration away from the media circus that would likely surround his every visit to the facilities?

    Consider the microcosm of the world we represent here at TC. To my knowledge, none of us have direct connection to nor first-hand knowledge of the incident. Yet the matter is scrutinized, and intents are attached to actions apart from evidence of the same. You even categorized your presumption about the intent of the recommendation to relocate as "loud and clear."

    Imagine the level of rhetoric for those on-site.

    Ordinarily, church discipline and restoration happens within the church setting. That is the most appropriate place for it. However, it can be carried out under other geographical scenarios.
    Last edited by shopharim; 03/07/2007 at 02:19 PM.
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    #50  
    wow. you couldn't make up better material than this. truly bizarre.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  11.    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Is it possible, that he and his family may be better positioned for restoration away from the media circus that would likely surround his every visit to the facilities?

    Consider the microcosm of the world we represent here at TC. To my knowledge, none of us have direct connection to nor first-hand knowledge of the incident. Yet the matter is scrutinized, and intents are attached to actions apart from evidence of the same. You even categorized your presumption about the intent of the recommendation to relocate as "loud and clear."

    Imagine the level of rhetoric for those on-site.

    Ordinarily, church discipline and restoration happens within the church setting. That is the most appropriate place for it. However, it can be carried out under other geographical scenarios.
    Shopharim, your own suggestions of what you think might be occurring and how I could be wrong were well crafted and eloquently delivered as usual. I would love to think that this unfortunate person is not being used by the church for propoganda purposes or being forced out of town in an unforgiving way. We only have the direct public statements from church officials and Haggard himself to go on, but I am sure there is another story which lies hidden behind the scenes which we will never know.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    ...I would love to think that this unfortunate person is not being used by the church for propoganda purposes or being forced out of town in an unforgiving way....
    Same here....Especially since our Savior told us that people would know we were His followers by our love one for another. Imagine, of all the good deeds we could perform in His name, or on His behalf, He says the tell-tale sign is the love factor.
  13.    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Same here....Especially since our Savior told us that people would know we were His followers by our love one for another. Imagine, of all the good deeds we could perform in His name, or on His behalf, He says the tell-tale sign is the love factor.
    I can sense that spirit in you, even when I kid you perhaps too severely, like my little "being impacted" joke, you always respond in a good natured way. I am just not sure if Haggard's evangelical leaders also share that unselfish spirit towards him or if they are mainly thinking of themselves and their own power base when they chose to banish him from Colorado Springs.
  14. #54  
    I must confess, that the selfish motive is a real possibility. Firstly, those who call themselves "christians" are "sinners" just like everybody else, except that we have identified the One who justifies us and secures our pardon. So, we are just as apt to respond to difficult circumstances in a self-preserving manner. That tendency is only multiplies when you factor in the desire/need to mitigate against the joy/vindication factor.
  15. #55  
    Isn't it funny that the homosexual sex thing is seen as a much greater issue than the drug use? The one is in fact legal (ignoring the prostitution part) while the other is very much illegal, and adversely affects your mental state. I certainly would not mind a gay man advising Bush, but some-one high on methamphetamines may just be advising Bush that he had a message from God that he would not mind if Bush pushed the button right now.

    Surur
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I wonder whether the white house drug tested him at some point?
  17.    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Isn't it funny that the homosexual sex thing is seen as a much greater issue than the drug use? The one is in fact legal (ignoring the prostitution part) while the other is very much illegal, and adversely affects your mental state. I certainly would not mind a gay man advising Bush, but some-one high on methamphetamines may just be advising Bush that he had a message from God that he would not mind if Bush pushed the button right now.

    Surur
    Good point. Haggard claims he just bought some drugs but never used them. I am skeptical, but I wonder whether the white house ever drug tested him at some point?

    nb sorry DA, I edited and reposted.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Good point. Haggard claims he just bought some drugs but never used them. I am skeptical, but I wonder whether the white house ever drug tested him at some point?

    nb sorry DA, I edited and reposted.
    When, where, & with what justification would the WH have drug tested Haggard?
  19.    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    When, where, & with what justification would the WH have drug tested Haggard?
    Anyone who works for the federal government is liable to getting random drug tests - that is the current policy. If Haggard advised Bush on a weekly basis, I would think that would qualify as working for the government. Whether any testing took place, I really have my doubts.

    As far as policy goes, I am not neccessarily a fan of arbitrary testing, but personally I think a case may be made for drug testing the president and his advisors. As Surer points out, it can save lives, if carried to an extreme example.

    In general, I think those who would force others to voluntarily limit their rights to privacy should be the first to set the example themselves.
  20. #60  
    I don’t know, I tend to think the homosexuality aspect of all this is just a little salacious detail about what was really an issue of honesty and fidelity. Ironically, it tends to be people from the fringes of the Right and the Left who benefit from focusing on those details.
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