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  1.    #1  
    There is only one issue in this election that will matter five or ten years from now, and that's the War on Terror.

    And the success of the War on Terror now teeters on the fulcrum of this election.

    If control of the House passes into Democratic hands, there are enough withdraw-on-a-timetable Democrats in positions of prominence that it will not only seem to be a victory for our enemies, it will be one.

    Unfortunately, the opposite is not the case -- if the Republican Party remains in control of both houses of Congress there is no guarantee that the outcome of the present war will be favorable for us or anyone else.

    But at least there will be a chance.

    I say this as a Democrat, for whom the Republican domination of government threatens many values that I hold to be important to America's role as a light among nations.



    http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2006-10-29-1.html
  2. NRG
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    #2  
    This is garbage.
  3. #3  
    Well the Republican's have made a mess of things to be sure. But if the Dems can win the house (and I have my doubts) at least we'll have some checks & balances.

    As far as Iraq I think many are saying the same thing if you remove the rhetoric. The GOP will demand a time-line of some sort tied to milestones that must be met if they remain in complete power of both houses. The rhetoric will be gone from the left as well if the Dems win IMO. Yes, there will be those on the far left that will demand a withdraw or to "cut & run". But I think most Dems will realize they must put forth a plan and work with the GOP to get ourselves out of the mess.

    The tenants of any agreement would at least need to account for the following IMO:

    - Putting the Iraqi's on a timetable to stand their troops up but with penalties of some sort assigned for failures. What penalties? Dunno...but we have to hold a gun to their head some how as they are not well motivated now to put their own troops in harms way vs. using US troops.
    - Form an international advisory board to help repair our ailing image, possibly bring new partners into the fold, and receive outside opinions that may well help us formulate better plans.
    - Accountability. There needs to be accountability in order to restore confidence that the way will be prosecuted successfully moving foward. For the second time all four military newspapers have called for Rumsfeld to resign. If the Dems win the house I think he will be gone. If not, he'll stay as the GOP has shown little appetite to keep the President in check.
    - Probably the biggest problem I have had with this optional war since day one was money. I never bought into the bull**** that it would costs us $75B. As it now stands the war will cost us over $500B and this is simply outrageous. There needs to be MAJOR financial accountability (aggressively prosecuting the Halliburtons who've robbed our troops of millions would be nice too) put into play and someone needs to say where we are getting this money. Yes, we'll need the money to be sure - it is what it is. But there needs to be more honesty and less shell games in how this war will be financed.
    - Recruiting. Simply lowering the standards to help meet recruiting goals is not enough. But the guys in the field over there are on their second and even third tour and that is just a recipe for failure. Instead of voting for their 7th consecutive pay raise this year the congress needs to improve the compensation, benefits, etc. to not only improve recruiting but insure these brave souls have a house and wife to come home to when they are done.

    I'm sure the list can go on and on but I guess my point is that I don't see all or any of this happening if the GOP hangs on to both houses. We need the Dems in the house to inject some balance into this mess. And if the Dems do win I hope they spend more time looking forward rather than backwards. Truly....I was outraged when the GOP spent $75M to chase Clinton over a blow job and I'll be just as mad if the Dems waste ALL of their time chasing things that happened in the past. The bulk of everyone's energy needs to be focused on the winding down of the war and the methods of financial recovery from this mess in Iraq.

    Now in terms of the "global war on terror" I am upset with the GOP because I believe that there are at least two fronts to the war on terror - military and DIPLOMACY. And when it comes to diplomacy I'm hard pressed to find someone more inept than Bush has been. So if the Dems take control I can only hope there will be pressure to put forth real diplomatic efforts to repair, restore confidence in America, its values, and its democracry as being the greatest in the world. And maybe then we can start to turn the tide of extremism by making more friends faster than we make enemies.
    Last edited by hdtv4me; 11/05/2006 at 10:04 AM.
  4.    #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG View Post
    This is garbage.
    Typical NRG point by point takedown.

  5. #5  
    To further my point about our stressed reservist....this article from the Washington Post

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15555730/
  6.    #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by hdtv4me View Post
    Well the Republican's have made a mess of things to be sure. But if the Dems can win the house (and I have my doubts) at least we'll have some checks & balances.

    As far as Iraq I think many are saying the same thing if you remove the rhetoric. The GOP will demand a time-line of some sort tied to milestones that must be met if they remain in complete power of both houses. The rhetoric will be gone from the left as well if the Dems win IMO. Yes, there will be those on the far left that will demand a withdraw or to "cut & run". But I think most Dems will realize they must put forth a plan and work with the GOP to get ourselves out of the mess.

    The tenants of any agreement would at least need to account for the following IMO:

    - Putting the Iraqi's on a timetable to stand their troops up but with penalties of some sort assigned for failures. What penalties? Dunno...but we have to hold a gun to their head some how as they are not well motivated now to put their own troops in harms way vs. using US troops.
    - Form an international advisory board to help repair our ailing image, possibly bring new partners into the fold, and receive outside opinions that may well help us formulate better plans.
    - Accountability. There needs to be accountability in order to restore confidence that the way will be prosecuted successfully moving foward. For the second time all four military newspapers have called for Rumsfeld to resign. If the Dems win the house I think he will be gone. If not, he'll stay as the GOP has shown little appetite to keep the President in check.
    - Probably the biggest problem I have had with this optional war since day one was money. I never bought into the bull**** that it would costs us $75B. As it now stands the war will cost us over $500B and this is simply outrageous. There needs to be MAJOR financial accountability (aggressively prosecuting the Halliburtons who've robbed our troops of millions would be nice too) put into play and someone needs to say where we are getting this money. Yes, we'll need the money to be sure - it is what it is. But there needs to be more honesty and less shell games in how this war will be financed.
    - Recruiting. Simply lowering the standards to help meet recruiting goals is not enough. But the guys in the field over there are on their second and even third tour and that is just a recipe for failure. Instead of voting for their 7th consecutive pay raise this year the congress needs to improve the compensation, benefits, etc. to not only improve recruiting but insure these brave souls have a house and wife to come home to when they are done.

    I'm sure the list can go on and on but I guess my point is that I don't see all or any of this happening if the GOP hangs on to both houses. We need the Dems in the house to inject some balance into this mess. And if the Dems do win I hope they spend more time looking forward rather than backwards. Truly....I was outraged when the GOP spent $75M to chase Clinton over a blow job and I'll be just as mad if the Dems waste ALL of their time chasing things that happened in the past. The bulk of everyone's energy needs to be focused on the winding down of the war and the methods of financial recovery from this mess in Iraq.

    Now in terms of the "global war on terror" I am upset with the GOP because I believe that there are at least two fronts to the war on terror - military and DIPLOMACY. And when it comes to diplomacy I'm hard pressed to find someone more inept than Bush has been. So if the Dems take control I can only hope there will be pressure to put forth real diplomatic efforts to repair, restore confidence in America, its values, and its democracry as being the greatest in the world. And maybe then we can start to turn the tide of extremism by making more friends faster than we make enemies.
    Breathtaking Libspeak.

    1. Hundreds of Iraqi soldiers and policemen were killed last month. Hundreds. Explain how that is "not putting their troops in harm's way"?

    2. Your "International Advisory Board" sounds like a Maoist conciousness raising session. We'll all sit in the middle of the circle and have moral paragons like Sudan, China and North Korea chastise us for our sins.

    3. The four "military" newspapers you refer to are owned by Ganett. Read a USA Today, or a San Diego Union Tribune editorial and you'll know where they're coming from.

    4. I eat in a KBR chowhall twice a day. My quarters are provided and maintained by KBR. The vehicle I drive is KBR fueled and maintained. There are no other companies that I'm aware of that can provide these services on the requisite scale in a WAR ZONE. Also, how do you project profit and loss in a war zone when everything you move comes over supply lines that are subject to terrorist attack?

    5. I come so close to agreeing with what you say...and then you portray military personnel as victims that will have no house or wife to come home to. What we pay junior grade personnel in our military is a national shame. Also, I would like to see some form of pay banding by MOS. The most dangerous job in this country is being a Marine Lance Corporal infantryman in Anbar. Why should a 9-5 clerk at Camp Fallujah be paid as much as the guy on patrol?

    6. No diplomacy? Here's news. A good portion of the nations in the world want to see us lose this thing. How do you have diplomatic relations with them

    Your final comments are classic blame America first Chomskyesque bromides leavened with chickenlittle economic squeals.
  7. #7  
    You speak very well about the issues from a person on the front line serving his country. Every point you bring up is so very obvious.

    Thank you very much for what you and your fellow soldiers are doing. I appreciate it. God be with you and I have no problem saying so.

    Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever View Post
    Breathtaking Libspeak.

    1. Hundreds of Iraqi soldiers and policemen were killed last month. Hundreds. Explain how that is "not putting their troops in harm's way"?

    2. Your "International Advisory Board" sounds like a Maoist conciousness raising session. We'll all sit in the middle of the circle and have moral paragons like Sudan, China and North Korea chastise us for our sins.

    3. The four "military" newspapers you refer to are owned by Ganett. Read a USA Today, or a San Diego Union Tribune editorial and you'll know where they're coming from.

    4. I eat in a KBR chowhall twice a day. My quarters are provided and maintained by KBR. The vehicle I drive is KBR fueled and maintained. There are no other companies that I'm aware of that can provide these services on the requisite scale in a WAR ZONE. Also, how do you project profit and loss in a war zone when everything you move comes over supply lines that are subject to terrorist attack?

    5. I come so close to agreeing with what you say...and then you portray military personnel as victims that will have no house or wife to come home to. What we pay junior grade personnel in our military is a national shame. Also, I would like to see some form of pay banding by MOS. The most dangerous job in this country is being a Marine Lance Corporal infantryman in Anbar. Why should a 9-5 clerk at Camp Fallujah be paid as much as the guy on patrol?

    6. No diplomacy? Here's news. A good portion of the nations in the world want to see us lose this thing. How do you have diplomatic relations with them

    Your final comments are classic blame America first Chomskyesque bromides leavened with chickenlittle economic squeals.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever View Post
    Breathtaking Libspeak.

    1. Hundreds of Iraqi soldiers and policemen were killed last month. Hundreds. Explain how that is "not putting their troops in harm's way"?

    2. Your "International Advisory Board" sounds like a Maoist conciousness raising session. We'll all sit in the middle of the circle and have moral paragons like Sudan, China and North Korea chastise us for our sins.

    3. The four "military" newspapers you refer to are owned by Ganett. Read a USA Today, or a San Diego Union Tribune editorial and you'll know where they're coming from.

    4. I eat in a KBR chowhall twice a day. My quarters are provided and maintained by KBR. The vehicle I drive is KBR fueled and maintained. There are no other companies that I'm aware of that can provide these services on the requisite scale in a WAR ZONE. Also, how do you project profit and loss in a war zone when everything you move comes over supply lines that are subject to terrorist attack?

    5. I come so close to agreeing with what you say...and then you portray military personnel as victims that will have no house or wife to come home to. What we pay junior grade personnel in our military is a national shame. Also, I would like to see some form of pay banding by MOS. The most dangerous job in this country is being a Marine Lance Corporal infantryman in Anbar. Why should a 9-5 clerk at Camp Fallujah be paid as much as the guy on patrol?

    6. No diplomacy? Here's news. A good portion of the nations in the world want to see us lose this thing. How do you have diplomatic relations with them

    Your final comments are classic blame America first Chomskyesque bromides leavened with chickenlittle economic squeals.
    Lipspeak? No, they were ideas and your rebuttal is welcome but your name calling is not.

    So to your points:

    1. Good point. We don't hear much about that over here so I stand corrected if they are in fact finally getting out in front of our troops and taking the bullets instead of us.

    2. Well it is too bad your too far right to comment on this without typical rightwinged bravado. I in no way are advocating that any such advisory committee would have authority over anything nor did I say anything about China or North Korea. But I can see now your intent it not to discuss but rather put words in my mouth.

    3. So what? They are the newspapers read by thousands of servicemen are they not? And while you haven't done so, it amazes me how the right can always claim that Fox News is unbiased but manage to drudge up stuff like this if a story runs in a newspaper that they do not like. Just out of curiousity - who did each of these newspapers support in the 2004 Presidential election?

    4. Well I am glad to hear you are eating well and driving such nice vehicles. But you did not address my main point (only the comment about Halliburton) and that is that there needs to be fiscal responsibility in executing the war and the handling of the contractors - to date, there has not. And if you really are in Iraq I wouldn't expect you to know that but as a tax payer I am pretty pissed off that MILLIONS have been stolen and horribly mismanaged. I'd rather have seen that lost money go toward better compensation for troops and more troops than in Halliburton's pockets.

    5. Glad we can find some common ground. But as usual, you've put words in my mouth. I did not say anything about guys on patrol being paid the same as support personnel.

    6. So basically you are saying that, because Bush has so severely destroyed and semblence of good will in the world toward the US that we should not even try to rebuild that good will? Boy you have a pretty myopic view of the world and how we ought to be perceived.

    To your final sentence....whatever. Chickenlittle? Uh...OK. Again....more name calling. Nice.
  9.    #9  
    I'll be sure to call President Kerry and congratulate him on carrying the day for his party...

  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever View Post
    I'll be sure to call President Kerry and congratulate him on carrying the day for his party...

    God I hope not. I've may have defended his right to botch a joke but I hope to god the Dems have something better than Kerry for 2008.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever View Post
    There is only one issue in this election that will matter five or ten years from now, and that's the War on Terror.

    And the success of the War on Terror now teeters on the fulcrum of this election.

    If control of the House passes into Democratic hands, there are enough withdraw-on-a-timetable Democrats in positions of prominence that it will not only seem to be a victory for our enemies, it will be one.

    Unfortunately, the opposite is not the case -- if the Republican Party remains in control of both houses of Congress there is no guarantee that the outcome of the present war will be favorable for us or anyone else.

    But at least there will be a chance.

    I say this as a Democrat, for whom the Republican domination of government threatens many values that I hold to be important to America's role as a light among nations.



    http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2006-10-29-1.html
    1911, this election day, we will be starting to regain control of something that has gone horribly wrong these last few years. Read the Army, Navy, Marine, Air Force times, when you have a break. Think about how their call for the resignation of the President's Defense Secretary is the most obvious referendum on this botched war on terror that can be made, coming from publications that have been the friends of US servicemen and women for 60 years.

    So when we are pulling the plug on the republican controlled congress this Tuesday, instead of Orson Scott Card, consider the analogy of Arthur C. Clark in 2001 A Space Odyssey:

    Daisy, dais.................
  12.    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    1911, this election day, we will be starting to regain control of something that has gone horribly wrong these last few years. Read the Army, Navy, Marine, Air Force times, when you have a break. Think about how their call for the resignation of the President's Defense Secretary is the most obvious referendum on this botched war on terror that can be made, coming from publications that have been the friends of US servicemen and women for 60 years.

    So when we are pulling the plug on the republican controlled congress this Tuesday, instead of Orson Scott Card, consider the analogy of Arthur C. Clark in 2001 A Space Odyssey:

    Daisy, dais.................
    You missed my earlier comment. The "Times" papers are owned by Gannett. The same people that publish the commie rag known as "USA Today". Every week they put some scandal on the cover...usually stories of heroism are buried deep...just like the NYT, I guess.
  13. #13  
    Commie rag? Wow.

    So please tell me what papers are accurate or are they all commies?

    More name calling. So papers that have a liberal leaning (again, whatever the hell liberal means....these days its anything that doesn't support the President's viewpoint) they are "commies"?

    So tell me....what exactly ARE you defending over there in Iraq? It certainly doesn't sound like the US constitution. Spewing rhetoric to support the imperial Presidency might be more accurate.
  14.    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by hdtv4me View Post
    Lipspeak? No, they were ideas and your rebuttal is welcome but your name calling is not.

    So to your points:

    1. Good point. We don't hear much about that over here so I stand corrected if they are in fact finally getting out in front of our troops and taking the bullets instead of us.

    2. Well it is too bad your too far right to comment on this without typical rightwinged bravado. I in no way are advocating that any such advisory committee would have authority over anything nor did I say anything about China or North Korea. But I can see now your intent it not to discuss but rather put words in my mouth.

    3. So what? They are the newspapers read by thousands of servicemen are they not? And while you haven't done so, it amazes me how the right can always claim that Fox News is unbiased but manage to drudge up stuff like this if a story runs in a newspaper that they do not like. Just out of curiousity - who did each of these newspapers support in the 2004 Presidential election?

    4. Well I am glad to hear you are eating well and driving such nice vehicles. But you did not address my main point (only the comment about Halliburton) and that is that there needs to be fiscal responsibility in executing the war and the handling of the contractors - to date, there has not. And if you really are in Iraq I wouldn't expect you to know that but as a tax payer I am pretty pissed off that MILLIONS have been stolen and horribly mismanaged. I'd rather have seen that lost money go toward better compensation for troops and more troops than in Halliburton's pockets.

    5. Glad we can find some common ground. But as usual, you've put words in my mouth. I did not say anything about guys on patrol being paid the same as support personnel.

    6. So basically you are saying that, because Bush has so severely destroyed and semblence of good will in the world toward the US that we should not even try to rebuild that good will? Boy you have a pretty myopic view of the world and how we ought to be perceived.

    To your final sentence....whatever. Chickenlittle? Uh...OK. Again....more name calling. Nice.

    There's a lot going on over here you don't hear about. Think about that for a minute, and then ask youself why that is.

    Then speak plainly about what your "advisory committee" would be, other than another UN financed Bash the US program?

    The "Times" newspapers are read by thousands, but their subscription base is very low. Guys buy them to get the scoop on promotion scores and what gear they're going to be getting. Their editorial board is leftist. You should read some of the letters to the editor they publish in response to their whacked out views.

    Mismanaged is a lot different that stolen. And how easy do you think it is to manage logistics on a for profit basis in a WAR ZONE? How many congressional committees have scrutinized Haliburton, anyway?

    I didn't put any words in your mouth. I clearly stated what I would like to see.

    Right. Bush acted in a vacuum. 9/11 never happened. The Islamist threat doesn't exist. The world loved us before 9/11. My "myopia" is based on the course of action I think will ensure our national survival. What is your view based upon...I submit it is wanting to be liked by people that would lop off your head at the first chance they had.

    I was characterizing your statements. If I build a shoe and you say it fits, well, that's your business.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever View Post
    The "Times" papers are owned by Gannett. The same people that publish the commie rag known as "USA Today".
    You think the Army, Navy, Marine and Air Force Times and USA Today are run by communists.

    I think:

    Daisy dais...............
  16.    #16  
    I wrote earlier that 48 hours will tell the story. I retract that.

    I think there will be lawsuits, and recounts and lots of loose accusations. It seems that Dems can either win an election, or it was stolen.

    If the Repubs do lose it will be because they lost touch with their base. The immigration issue was seriously misplayed by the party that gave us the Contract and gained 54 seats in 1994. They need to get back to that strategy, and work around the media.

    We'll see. There are people not a mile from where I sit awaiting the outcome of this election, and they do not mean us well.
  17. #17  
    "I was characterizing your statements. If I build a shoe and you say it fits, well, that's your business."

    Precisely why it is so hard talking to ringwinged nut jobs - its OK to "characterize" whenever you see fit and then you'll pile on and snivel whenever I do the same. For the record, the shoe does not fit at all.
  18. #18  
    The integrity of the democratic system is at stake.

    If the R's are not punished for their incompetency, corruption (seen how the # of lobbyists has ballooned in the last 6 years?), scandals, pork, propensity to spend the next generation's $, running the government from the extreme, not the middle, then the lawmakers will (rightfully) think that they can get away with anything. Hold them accountable.

    I am not suggesting that the D's will do better if ruling in perpetuity. Vote them out too if they become corrupt fat-cats.

    This time, it is R's turn to be taught what they stand for.

    As for the Iraq situation, the Pres controls the foreign policy. No one but he can give orders to pull out the troops for another 2 years.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  19. #19  
    We agree on this point. Kerry, Gore, Clinton, the whole group of them leave a lot to be desired. Surely there must be someone in the party who is straight as an arrow, the above three are not.

    Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by hdtv4me View Post
    God I hope not. I've may have defended his right to botch a joke but I hope to god the Dems have something better than Kerry for 2008.
  20. #20  
    The immigration issues was the hot issue for a long time and neither party wanted to address it. One party never wanted to touch it and the other avoided it until the pressure became too much.

    Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever View Post
    I wrote earlier that 48 hours will tell the story. I retract that.

    I think there will be lawsuits, and recounts and lots of loose accusations. It seems that Dems can either win an election, or it was stolen.

    If the Repubs do lose it will be because they lost touch with their base. The immigration issue was seriously misplayed by the party that gave us the Contract and gained 54 seats in 1994. They need to get back to that strategy, and work around the media.

    We'll see. There are people not a mile from where I sit awaiting the outcome of this election, and they do not mean us well.
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