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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio View Post
    I missed the part where he had a sexual partner. He needs to be held accountable for his actions (and I believe he will) and all others involved need to be held accountable for their actions (much less likely since I believe both sides knew some extent of what was going on). I think the fall out is going to effect both dems and repubs as most know this is not a political affiliation event, but an example of how those in power feel they can do what they want, drive under the influence, slap police officers, send dirty e-mails to under age kids, forced sexual relations, bribes, murder the list goes on and on.

    Get off the political sides and start holding all accountable to a higher standard.
    Agreed. Let us not attribute to all Republicans (or all gay men) the acts of a few.

    That said, Mark Foley abused his position. He should have, and did, resign his office. The leadership of the Congress was guilty of a failure in judgment. The Speaker may accept blame or fix it; then someone should resign. (A commentator on C-SPAN just said that the question is no longer whether the Speaker will go but how many he will take with him. An op-ed in USA Today suggested that the ouster of Hastert would not be enough.)
    Last edited by whmurray; 10/04/2006 at 10:32 AM.
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    #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    Agreed. Let us not attribute to all Republicans (or all gay men) the acts of a few.

    That said, Mark Foley abused his position. He should have, and did, resign his office. The leadership of the Congress was guilty of a failure in judgment. The Speaker may accept blame or fix it; then someone should resign. (A commentator on C-SPAN just said that the question is no longer whether the Speaker will go but how many he will take with him.)
    Instead of identifying who should go at this point, lets find out who had knowledge of the situation and hold all responsible, repub, dem, independent.

    A question I as a parent struggle with is do the parents have any responsibility in this event if they knew the child was getting these IM/e-mails and did not report them to the appropriate officials? Would I sit back and let the perp continue to send e-mails or would I possibly embaress my child and get these made public?

    Not ignoring, but gotta run.
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  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio View Post
    Instead of identifying who should go at this point, lets find out who had knowledge of the situation and hold all responsible, repub, dem, independent...........
    I am scrupulously trying to avoid that responsibility; it belongs to the Speaker. Whatever he knew or whenever he knew it, he must take the fall or find someone else to take it.
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio View Post
    Barye, are you saying the former women (did they have a sex change operation) or former Irag war soldier (they were in the Iraqi Army) or are they wome who werved in the US Armed Forces previously? I can not speak to the first two, but if they were US Armed Forces members and they did not speak up concerning the reported sexual harrasment the story does not hold much weight with me. There are so many ways to report any incident that is believed to be harrasment and every one hears the message multiple times a year. Does it still happen, sure it does, is it reported, you bet it is, is it taken seriously, without a doubt.

    I am not sure I follow your line of thought when you say if Foley was openly gay (could not care less what his political affiliation is) he could have been less sexually abnormal and had conventional relations with adult men. Do all closeted gay men desire young boys? When they come out does that desire disappear? Do all gay men desire young boys?

    hey cardio -- its been too long ...


    One of the women (her name escapes me for now) has had her story publicized fairly broadly in some media circles.

    They both described environments where they felt intimidated from making complaints -- where their superior could (and did) transfer non-compliant underlings from safe duty to guarding convoys.

    I can only report what I heard, and it seemed like a potentially uncomfortable and unhealthy environment depending on where and who was in charge.

    Back to Foley -- I just read this article in the Wash. Post that goes into some detail as to his sexuality, and the degree to which it was known.

    I was mistaken in presuming that he had no normal adult gay relations. The article says that he has had a more or less open relationship with a Doctor for some time. It was known both in the congress and in his home district.

    I don't think that pediphillia is inherent in gay sexuallity.
    (BTW -- pedophillia is usually defined as lusting after young children -- I think that sexual desire toward 16-17 yr. olds is regarded somewhat differently.)

    What Foley actually did was awful -- and what he was attempting to do was reprehensible. But from what we have so far heard -- there have been as yet no reports of his ever succeeding in his attempts.
    Last edited by BARYE; 10/04/2006 at 11:02 AM.
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  5.    #105  


    When they do crap like this it really is just tacky.
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    ..............I don't think that pediphillia is inherent in gay sexuallity. (BTW -- pedophillia is usually defined as lusting after young children -- I think that sexual desire toward 16-17 yr. olds is regarded somewhat differently.) .........
    Indeed. Nor is it inherent in heterosexuals, the population in which most paedophiles appear.
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    ...........What Foley actually did was awful -- and what he was attempting to do was reprehensible. But from what we have so far heard -- there have been as yet no reports of his ever succeeding in his attempts.
    However we might feel about this, how reprehensible we personally feel the behavior was, perhaps it is time to introduce a little proportionality here. At one level, what the congressman is known to be guilty of is naughty talk. History suggests that this would not be sufficient cause for resignation, might not even keep him from re-election.

    The dirty talk is aggravated by the fact that it was with a minor; with a peer this might simply be "pillow talk." [My [teen-age] [great] nephews assure me that such IM conversations are common among teenagers.] However, it was not with a child but with a fairly sophisticated cooperating teen-ager, one with the power to end it anytime he chose; mitigating. [Difficult , but one might even feel a little sympathy for an aging queen being led on by a cynical tease.]

    The language was cleary intended to be and, depending upon the teen-ager, might have been arousing; aggravating. The implication of "and what he was attempting to do" is that it was intended to be seductive. While I have not seen any evidence or charges to that effect, that would be grossly aggravating. Presumably some, perhaps all, of the pages were straight, making the language gender inappropriate. For some of us, this seems to be the most aggravating factor.

    However, the most aggravating factor, the one that cost him his job, was that he stood in a position of power, indeed in loco parentis, relative to that teen-ager. At a minimum, he could grant or withhold favors, such as a reference or recommendation, but it is possible that a teen-ager might project a great deal more power than that on the relationship.

    Do I have it wrong? What do you think was the most aggravating factor?
    Last edited by whmurray; 10/04/2006 at 04:06 PM.
  8. #108  
    Jacko Running For Foley's Seat

    King of Pop Makes First Foray into Politics

    In a stunning development that could radically alter the electoral landscape in the upcoming midterm elections, the singer Michael Jackson announced today that he would run for the seat vacated last Friday by former Rep. Mark Foley (R-Fla.)

    Mr. Jackson told reporters that he had never shown much interest in politics before, but added, "When I started reading about Mark Foley, I realized that the House of Representatives was my kind of place."

    The platinum-selling recording artist drew big crowds in his first day of campaigning, delighting onlookers in Orlando by getting out of his limo and dancing on its roof.

    But in one regrettable gaffe for the novice politician, Mr. Jackson kissed a baby in Daytona Beach and then dangled the child from a hotel balcony.

    "My bad," Mr. Jackson later said.

    House Republicans expressed muted support for Mr. Jackson's election bid, with Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert saying that he knew of nothing in the singer's past that would prevent him from serving ably in the House.

    "Michael Jackson has done a lot of positive things, especially in the field of mentoring," Mr. Hastert said.

    According to Buddy Schlantz, a veteran talent agent and observer of the entertainment scene, transforming himself from King of Pop to congressman from Florida could prove to be a shrewd image makeover for the tabloid-ready Mr. Jackson.

    "In the outside world, Michael Jackson seems weird and maybe even a freak," Mr. Schlantz said. "But once he's in Congress he'll seem perfectly normal."

    Elsewhere, in Stockholm, Sweden, the Nobel Prize in chemistry was awarded to Barry Bonds.
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  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35 View Post
    Jacko Running For Foley's Seat

    King of Pop Makes First Foray into Politics

    ..........
    Tacky. No one claims that this is really a serious thread but this is tacky.
  10.    #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    Tacky. No one claims that this is really a serious thread but this is tacky.
    I have to agree.
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    Tacky. No one claims that this is really a serious thread but this is tacky.
    I'm also bothered that there's no attribution to this lengthy post. Perhaps you wrote this yourself in which case my concern is misplaced.

    I hope so, because when you make a lengthy posting without attribution it leaves the misleading impression that you are the author of it.
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  12. #112  
    according to stories broadcast on CBS + ABC as well as published in the Washington Post, Hastert was strongly warned about Foley by Foley's own chief of staff as much as 3+ years ago.

    That new revelations are continuing to drip out about Hastert's role and the extent of the coverup has in effect already made Hastert politically, a dead man walkin.

    The repugnicans know that whether they hold a majority or not, Hastert is out as speaker immediately after the election.

    They'd like cut him lose now, but their fear is that having a second consecutive speaker resign under the cloud of a criminal investigation could bring even more attention to this scandal, and thereby hurt them even more at the polls.


    Ex-Aide To Foley Cites '03 Warnings
    Former Staffer Says He Alerted Hastert's Office


    By Jonathan Weisman and Charles Babington
    Washington Post Staff Writers
    Thursday, October 5, 2006

    A longtime chief of staff to disgraced former representative Mark Foley (R-Fla.) approached House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert's office three years ago, repeatedly imploring senior Republicans to help stop Foley's advances toward teenage male pages, the staff member said yesterday.

    The account by Kirk Fordham, who resigned yesterday from his job with another senior lawmaker, pushed back to 2003 or earlier the time when Hastert's staff reportedly became aware of Foley's questionable behavior concerning teenagers working on Capitol Hill.

    It raised new questions about Hastert's assertions that senior GOP leaders were aware only of "over-friendly" e-mails from 2005 that they say did not raise alarm bells when they came to light this year.

    "The fact is, even prior to the existence of the Foley e-mail exchanges, I had more than one conversation with senior staff at the highest levels of the House of Representatives, asking them to intervene when I was informed of Mr. Foley's inappropriate behavior," said Fordham, who was Foley's chief of staff for 10 years...

    Fordham is the fourth person to indicate that Hastert (Ill.) or his staff was warned about Foley's questionable behavior months or years before the six-term lawmaker abruptly resigned Friday, after ABC News published lewd instant messages that the lawmaker had sent to former pages...
    Last edited by BARYE; 10/05/2006 at 02:07 AM.
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  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I'm also bothered that there's no attribution to this lengthy post. Perhaps you wrote this yourself in which case my concern is misplaced.

    I hope so, because when you make a lengthy posting without attribution it leaves the misleading impression that you are the author of it.
    My bad - this was lifted from Andy Borowitz's daily column. (borowitz.com)

    As for tacky - are you guys serious??? This whole situation is friggin' hilarious! Watching all the politicos running around sputtering in self-righteous indignation - especially seeing the Damncats trying to emulate their Repugnican counterparts - what's not to laugh about that??

    As whmurray pointed out earlier - nobody has gotten hurt (except for some political careers - but those guys will still have great careers as used-car salesmen) and no laws seem to have been broken (except for those recently contrived ones).

    Almost as funny as the Cigar and the Blue Dress!
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  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35 View Post
    As whmurray pointed out earlier - nobody has gotten hurt (except for some political careers - but those guys will still have great careers as used-car salesmen) and no laws seem to have been broken (except for those recently contrived ones).
    I'd have to say wrong on both counts. Soliciting children is against the law for a reason - it's harmful. Whether or not Foley actually had any physical contact with these pages, his actions were psychologically damaging.
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35 View Post
    My bad - this was lifted from Andy Borowitz's daily column. (borowitz.com)

    As for tacky - are you guys serious??? This whole situation is friggin' hilarious! Watching all the politicos running around sputtering in self-righteous indignation - especially seeing the Damncats trying to emulate their Repugnican counterparts - what's not to laugh about that??

    As whmurray pointed out earlier - nobody has gotten hurt (except for some political careers - but those guys will still have great careers as used-car salesmen) and no laws seem to have been broken (except for those recently contrived ones).

    Almost as funny as the Cigar and the Blue Dress!
    LOL!
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus View Post
    I'd have to say wrong on both counts. Soliciting children is against the law for a reason - it's harmful. Whether or not Foley actually had any physical contact with these pages, his actions were psychologically damaging.
    Please be a little more careful with your usage. There was no "solicitation" and these are not "children." The offense was a clear abuse of power, perhaps exploitation.
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus View Post
    I'd have to say wrong on both counts. Soliciting children is against the law for a reason - it's harmful. Whether or not Foley actually had any physical contact with these pages, his actions were psychologically damaging.
    Per Drudge at least one of these kids was 18.

    Representative Studds, call your answering service.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    Please be a little more careful with your usage. There was no "solicitation" and these are not "children." The offense was a clear abuse of power, perhaps exploitation.
    I'd say asking a 16 year old to get a ruler is close enough to both. Do you really want to split hairs on that?
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus View Post
    I'd say asking a 16 year old to get a ruler is close enough to both. Do you really want to split hairs on that?
    Are you a partisan? Do you have a dog in this fight? Do you really want to aggravate an already bad enough situation through the use of emotionally loaded language? This offense would have been dramatically worse had it really involved "children," with all of the innocence that the term implies. These were teen-agers, at least sexually aware, if not sophisticated. [Some of the exchanges suggest that they were fairly sophisticated.]
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    Are you a partisan? Do you have a dog in this fight? Do you really want to aggravate an already bad enough situation through the use of emotionally loaded language? This offense would have been dramatically worse had it really involved "children," with all of the innocence that the term implies. These were teen-agers, at least sexually aware, if not sophisticated. [Some of the exchanges suggest that they were fairly sophisticated.]
    I'll agree that there's some fuzziness regarding the sexuality of teenagers. But I also think that my language is apropos.

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