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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    Good, maybe you'll answer this question. The precedent has already been set, a sitting House Representative who had a full-fledged sexual relationship with a page went on to win re-election five times. Further, nobody is saying the GOP leadership knew about the IMs but they did know about a history of being "over friendly" and one e-mail in which a picture of a page was requested. The leadership talked to him about it and left it at that. Now, given all this information, does it really seem like there was a massive cover up of institutional abuse (as some would try to portray it)?
    Only for purpose of argument, I will grant you all of your assumptions and answer your question as follows: It does not seem likely "that there was a massive cover up of institutional abuse (as some would like to portray it)." Rather what seems far more likely is that there were errors of judgement on the part of House and Party leadership.

    Since part of what we expect of leadership is judgement, it seems as though a remedy is indicated. For example, Speaker Hastert might resign from the leadership or even from the Congress (while, perhaps, reserving the right to run again in the future).

    On the other hand, while one might plan to vote against the Republicans for other more substantive reasons, it would seem disproportionate to remove the Republicans for no more than one error in judgement on the part of one or a few leaders.
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    I do not know what the investigation might show that would vindicate the program or justify its continuation.

    I think one can make a case that it is an anachronism. In the modern world, that little portion of the page's function that cannot be performed electronically, can be done by the huge (60K) congressional staff.

    On the other hand, the presence of these young people appears to constitute a temptation for our law makers. If we keep the system, we can expect continuing abuse and, every twenty years or so, we can expect another scandal. As in this case, the scandals will be more political distraction than anything substantive.

    Imagine a world in which elite young people spend their time talking about which of their elders are abusing their status by hittiing on them. It is time to end it.
    I've been neither a page or a choirboy.

    But it does seem as though there is nothing inherently wrong or evil inducing in having high achieving teenagers interacting with intelligent responsible adults, as pages. The actual job they perform is not important -- its the exposure and education they get from being up there.

    Choirboys though seem by their nature to be a totally awful tradition that should long ago have been dispensed with -- along with the pretense of a "chaste" priesthood...

    Constructing a system where sexually repressed gay men (I'm sorry, but the majority of current american priests are gay) supervise/mentor young vulnerable males is a cruel abomination.

    We should not presume though, the same of our lawmakers (or should we ??)

    They who have had the arrrogance to preach to the rest of us about morality, should have at least some semblance of morality of their own...
    Last edited by BARYE; 10/03/2006 at 03:53 PM.
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  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I think that the GOP leadership knew about this for some time but did almost nothing, except tell Foley to be careful, or something like that. It may be the tip of the iceberg. I do not know. I don't trust the GOP leadership to handle this as an internal investigation. Is there a bigger coverup than we suspect now? I think it is possible, an independent investigation is needed to find out. I am glad that we raised enough stink about it to make that happen.
    Okay, let's investigate. But investigate it for what it is: a member of Congress had inappropriate conversations with a subordinate and some other people might have known about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I think you conveniently leave out the GOP congressman who had an affair many years ago too didn't you? At any rate both him and the Democrat you cite above should have been kicked out of congress. That was then, not much we can do about it. This is now. Plenty we can do.
    There's a big difference there. The Republican in question was not removed from office but rather voted out in the next election.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    Only for purpose of argument, I will grant you all of your assumptions and answer your question as follows: It does not seem likely "that there was a massive cover up of institutional abuse (as some would like to portray it)." Rather what seems far more likely is that there were errors of judgement on the part of House and Party leadership.

    Since part of what we expect of leadership is judgement, it seems as though a remedy is indicated. For example, Speaker Hastert might resign from the leadership or even from the Congress (while, perhaps, reserving the right to run again in the future).

    On the other hand, while one might plan to vote against the Republicans for other more substantive reasons, it would seem disproportionate to remove the Republicans for no more than one error in judgement on the part of one or a few leaders.
    I can agree with that. And at this point I wouldn't pretend to judge Hastert for not stepping down since it really is he, and not we, who knows what actually transpired.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Constructing a system where sexually repressed gay men (I'm sorry, but the majority of current american priests are gay) supervise/mentor young vulnerable males is a cruel abomination.

    We should not presume though, the same of our lawmakers (or should we ??)

    They who have had the arrrogance to preach to the rest of us about morality, should at least some semblance of morality of their own...
    Can we assume, then, that you're also not in favor of gay men in the military? Or as Scoutmasters, etc.?
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    Can we assume, then, that you're also not in favor of gay men in the military? Or as Scoutmasters, etc.?
    I have no objection to openly gay men being priests (I would want the choir boy system to be ended no matter what). I would expect that they would have no unsupervised control of young males in any event, though.

    I have no problem with openly gay men being soldiers -- many many have performed commendably in that role.

    I would not expect a heterosexual male to supervise girl scouts -- nor a gay man to supervise boy scouts. Temptation is a human flaw -- realism is not a vice.
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  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I have no problem with openly gay men being soldiers -- many many have performed commendably in that role.
    Undoubtedly. But many of them also go on to be in charge of new young recruits. What say BARYE then?
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    Undoubtedly. But many of them also go on to be in charge of new young recruits. What say BARYE then?
    And your point is?
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    And your point is?
    Gay drill instructors would have unsupervised control over young male recruits. Seems to me not much different than the other scenarios BARYE opposes.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    Gay drill instructors would have unsupervised control over young male recruits. Seems to me not much different than the other scenarios BARYE opposes.
    Not to fear; there are no gay drill instructors, much less any unsupervised ones.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    Not to fear; there are no gay drill instructors, much less any unsupervised ones.
    Of course. I was merely speaking hypothetically.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    Of course. I was merely speaking hypothetically.
    Of course.
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    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    Gay drill instructors would have unsupervised control over young male recruits. Seems to me not much different than the other scenarios BARYE opposes.
    Young yes. Under 18, no.
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  14. NRG
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    #94  
    LOL. Here is the " ".
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs View Post
    Undoubtedly. But many of them also go on to be in charge of new young recruits. What say BARYE then?
    ANY fraternization by any drill sargeant, NCO, or officer that even had the appearance of coercion or favoritism -- regardless of the sexual orientation of the offender -- should be severely punishable.

    Last week I heard 2 former women Iraq war soldiers describe a coercive sexual environment with their (seperate) supervisory NCOs. One felt as though she had to have sex with this guy.

    I can't know all that went on, what all the facts were etc. -- but bad behavior is not exclusively gender based.

    Most of us have come to accept women in the military -- and arguably the same tensions and problems presented by women might be there with gay men who earn positions of authority.

    Many of the problems that institutions like the church have with the gay clergy grow from the fact that they must stay closeted. A furtive dishonest self identity seems to inevitably yield horrible behaviors.

    Maybe if Foley -- a conservative republican -- could have openly been gay (aside from capitol hill where it was universally known) he could have been less abnormal sexually -- and then maybe he would have been able to have had conventional relations with adult men.
    Last edited by BARYE; 10/04/2006 at 12:56 AM.
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  16. #96  
    I have two gripes with not just foley but all these disgusting politicians
    1)they like underage kids (the sex of the child is irrelevant in my mind). Possible jailable offense
    2)I hate the idea that my tax dollars are going to provide these old goats with sexual partners...sex and age of the youths we send to them are irrelevant... (I am not a PIMP)
  17. NRG
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    #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by perditac View Post
    I have two gripes with not just foley but all these disgusting politicians
    1)they like underage kids (the sex of the child is irrelevant in my mind). Possible jailable offense
    2)I hate the idea that my tax dollars are going to provide these old goats with sexual partners...sex and age of the youths we send to them are irrelevant... (I am not a PIMP)
    There you go! In otherwords I agree w/ you.
  18. cardio's Avatar
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    #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    ANY fraternization by any drill sargeant, NCO, or officer that even had the appearance of coercion or favoritism -- regardless of the sexual orientation of the offender -- should be severely punishable.

    Last week I heard 2 former women Iraq war soldiers describe a coercive sexual environment with their (seperate) supervisory NCOs. One felt as though she had to have sex with this guy.

    I can't know all that went on, what all the facts were etc. -- but bad behavior is not exclusively gender based.

    Most of us have come to accept women in the military -- and arguably the same tensions and problems presented by women might be there with gay men who earn positions of authority.

    Many of the problems that institutions like the church have with the gay clergy grow from the fact that they must stay closeted. A furtive dishonest self identity seems to inevitably yield horrible behaviors.

    Maybe if Foley -- a conservative republican -- could have openly been gay (aside from capitol hill where it was universally known) he could have been less abnormal sexually -- and then maybe he would have been able to have had conventional relations with adult men.

    Barye, are you saying the former women (did they have a sex change operation) or former Irag war soldier (they were in the Iraqi Army) or are they wome who werved in the US Armed Forces previously? I can not speak to the first two, but if they were US Armed Forces members and they did not speak up concerning the reported sexual harrasment the story does not hold much weight with me. There are so many ways to report any incident that is believed to be harrasment and every one hears the message multiple times a year. Does it still happen, sure it does, is it reported, you bet it is, is it taken seriously, without a doubt.

    I am not sure I follow your line of thought when you say if Foley was openly gay (could not care less what his political affiliation is) he could have been less sexually abnormal and had conventional relations with adult men. Do all closeted gay men desire young boys? When they come out does that desire disappear? Do all gay men desire young boys?
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
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  19. cardio's Avatar
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    #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by perditac View Post
    I have two gripes with not just foley but all these disgusting politicians
    1)they like underage kids (the sex of the child is irrelevant in my mind). Possible jailable offense
    2)I hate the idea that my tax dollars are going to provide these old goats with sexual partners...sex and age of the youths we send to them are irrelevant... (I am not a PIMP)

    I missed the part where he had a sexual partner. He needs to be held accountable for his actions (and I believe he will) and all others involved need to be held accountable for their actions (much less likely since I believe both sides knew some extent of what was going on). I think the fall out is going to effect both dems and repubs as most know this is not a political affiliation event, but an example of how those in power feel they can do what they want, drive under the influence, slap police officers, send dirty e-mails to under age kids, forced sexual relations, bribes, murder the list goes on and on.

    Get off the political sides and start holding all accountable to a higher standard.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
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  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio View Post
    I am not sure I follow your line of thought when you say if Foley was openly gay (could not care less what his political affiliation is) he could have been less sexually abnormal and had conventional relations with adult men. Do all closeted gay men desire young boys? When they come out does that desire disappear? Do all gay men desire young boys?
    If one wishes to post here, one must be jesuitically skilled in rhetoric, lest any lack of skill be used to infer things which one clearly does not intend.

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