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  1.    #1  
    This is serious..

    One of THE BEST Music schools in Minnesota, ios owned by a local university. St. Thomas. http://www.stthomas.edu . IT has been going on for decades. Recently, though, They decided that Music wasn't good enough for the, and therefore, cut all funding for that seciton of the music program, and others. My school has less than 3 months to get out.

    The school went under new mangement 6 years ago, and now is actualyl pretty profitable, but it seems thatLAW schoosl are better fit for them. IT is a very nice building, and is a very nice school (WE have had kids go onto Gullaird (the big music college)). IT has been made into a large cummunity thing, and has almst every instrument represented.

    IT's a shock to all. SO I'm AM ASKING VISORCENTRAL USERS TO HELP! I cannot post direct e-mails but if you look at http://www.stthomas.edu you can find some.

    The love of Music must go on.. I mean where else to you learn it? St. Thomas is a Catholic school! Religion is ALMOST ALWAYS associated with music.

    I jsut hope that it's not to late. PLEASE HELP! please..


    -miradu2000
    dissapointed.. at the damn world.
  2. #2  
    I also live in St. Paul. While I feel for you, you must realize that St. Thomas is a private school...in business to make money. Pure and simple. Yes, it is sad and VERY upsetting that they would sacrifice their Music curriculum, however, like any company, they need to cut departments that aren't in the best interest of the overall company's fiscal interest.

    I wish it weren't that way, of course.

    On the plus side, there are a lot of great schools in the Twin Cities area. Is St. Thomas going to help those students transfer to other universities?

    If you want to make some noise, get a hold of their alumni list. That SHOULD be available to students. Those are the people you need to convince (as they tend to be a good chunk of the University's revenue).

    The internal politics of universities...especially private ones can be infuriatingly complex...I wish you luck!
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  3. #3  
    This is a load of crap. I was going to do graduate work in music at St. Thomas. You can be damn sure they're going to get e-mails from me. It'll be a day for me to calm down. They don't want to hear what I have to say right now -- not to mention I doubt that it would advance my case any. They will hear from me though.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  4. #4  
    Originally posted by homer
    I also live in St. Paul. While I feel for you, you must realize that St. Thomas is a private school...in business to make money. Pure and simple. Yes, it is sad and VERY upsetting that they would sacrifice their Music curriculum, however, like any company, they need to cut departments that aren't in the best interest of the overall company's fiscal interest.
    Actually music brings in quite a bit of money (in most cases it's second only to sports). But having high paid lawyers as alumni to push for a focus in law studies rather out-weighs high-school band directors (which is where a lot of music graduates end up). I forgot to mention that donations make up an even larger part of income, esp. for private schools.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  5. #5  
    Does anyone else hear an echo?
    Last edited by dick-richardson; 02/26/2001 at 11:18 PM.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  6. #6  
    I'll approach from three sides.

    Side one... Both my parents were music teachers. One sister is currently teaching music in the same school district. Two other sisters are music directors in the churches they belong to. Naturally, I have a love for music. Naturally, I think general music education belongs in the school system.

    Side two... (why they close music departments) Having a college degree in music alone is a very hard thing to sell. Why? Because the majority of "school" musicians, while clearly talented, will never make a living with it. The music teachers in my family have degrees in education. A music degree alone would not qualify them to teach. If you are not talented enough to be a professional musician, then you'll need another degree to find a good paying job. If you ARE talented enough to be a professional musician, then you probably don't need a college degree in it. Just lessons to improve your skill. Most professional musicians succeed without degrees in music. Even if you want to know the "science" of music, you can figure it out without going to college. Want to teach music? Get a degree in music, then get one in education. Want to PLAY music? Practice, Practice, Practice. Get together with other musicians and practice some more.

    At my college the music department succeeds because the football team does, and they need marching and pep bands to perform at games. The great musicians that have come from my college (sorry, but I can't think of any to name) will have succeeded despite their time in college.

    Side three... The college department (interior architecture) I teach in went thru a phase of threatened elimination. The state failed to recognize our uniqueness and the value of our graduates to society, and assumed we were identical to other programs at other universities in the state and thus could be closed. We survived because our students and faculty and staff marched (stomped) through the administration building and around campus. We survived because we contacted every alumni and supporter and employer of our graduates, and every politician we had ever done a favor for, and every newspaper we could think of. We let them take pictures of our students laying prone in rows on the front lawn of the administration building with T-Squares planted as headstones above them. We published a list of all the awards and publicity we'd brought to the university. We ran administrative and political FAX machines out of paper with letters admonishing the recipients for their bad judgement in closing our department. We made their decision and the reaction a national news item. It became a national embarassment for them, since they could not well defend it.

    In the end, the college president publically apologized, claiming he'd been mis-informed about our value to the university. Several thousand onlookers cheered. There were a total of 95 people (students and faculty) in the department at that time.

    My point? No matter what the real worth of a program, the only way to keep it is to fight. Fight loudly. Fight hard. Don't give up. We had failed to make it known how worthy we were, so they tried to close us. We don't make that mistake anymore.

    Dave
    There is nothing yet made by man that cannot be improved upon.
  7. #7  
    Originally posted by DBrown
    I'll approach from three sides...at which point he talks quite a bit. Read it again, it's good.
    Well said.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  8. #8  
    I graduated from St. Thomas in May. No respect for the school. Absolutely 0.
  9. #9  
    Originally posted by dietrichbohn
    I graduated from St. Thomas in May. No respect for the school. Absolutely 0.
    Why?
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  10. #10  
    Looks like we have a little Twin Cities club going on here ;o)

    All right, Miradu. It looks like us two St. Paulies vs. the two evil Minneapolisites
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  11.    #11  
    yeah.. yuck! GO BACK TO the LOSER city where you came from.. WE ARE THE CAPITOL!!! (sorry for the flame)

    I want to clarify a couple things..

    1) They are NOT closing there whole music program, just the CONSERVATORY for private lessons(and group), and massive budget cuts to the rest of music.

    2) I just had my lesson today, and there askign people to write letters asking them to help relocate the conservatory. The people who run it, belive that they can function as a non-profit.. so hopefully. But that would only work with help from St. Thomas.

    3) I have lost all respect for St. Thomas



    This is bad though.. Where IS MUSIC TO BE TAUGHT?!?! I mean this is a catholic school!! Doesn't church and music go together?!

    ****, stop beaing a karma *****.

    hahahahahhahaa
    -miradu2000
  12. #12  
    Why?
    Ok, I overstated... I have 0 respect for the administration. Backwards looking, and mainly concerned about cashola and image. More specifically, trying to get more cashola without tarnishing image.

    ...anyway, they care more about the dept's that don't seem to jive with their Catholic schtick, business specifically.

    Oh, and St. Thomas' main campus is in St. Paul, and everybody knows that St. Paul is the lesser of the Twin Cities....

    Miradu, find out how much of an increase the MBA and law schools are getting, or better yet, have the neighbors fighting campus sprawl form a mob and raid Albertus Hall!
  13. #13  
    Originally posted by dietrichbohn

    Ok, I overstated... I have 0 respect for the administration. Backwards looking, and mainly concerned about cashola and image. More specifically, trying to get more cashola without tarnishing image.
    Most Universities are like that from what I've seen. Esp. private ones.
    ...anyway, they care more about the dept's that don't seem to jive with their Catholic schtick, business specifically...
    This is becoming a trend with Catholic (or any denomination, really) colleges. Creighton esp.

    Although I have to say I was hoping for a bit more from St. Thomas than money-grubbing hypocrites.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  14.    #14  
    hmm// GOOD IDEA!!I knwthe neighborhood is goingto be pisssed abotu losing it's music school.. RIOT RIOT RIOT!!!!
    -Michael Ducker
    TreoCentral Staff
  15. #15  
    Originally posted by homer
    While I feel for you, you must realize that St. Thomas is a private school...in business to make money. Pure and simple. Yes, it is sad and VERY upsetting that they would sacrifice their Music curriculum, however, like any company, they need to cut departments that aren't in the best interest of the overall company's fiscal interest.

    I wish it weren't that way, of course.
    This is precisely why Bush's voucher schemes should be resolutely resisted. Public money should never go into private social institutions. We'll wind up with curricula determined by stockholders, not teachers, not parents, nor even principals -- a situation not much different than HMOs. We've been warned.
  16. #16  
    Gameboy, why shouldn't Public School systems have to compete? They might actually start to spend our money on education instead of bureaucracy. I went to PS in California, before and after Prop. 13. The quality of education dropped considerably. Not many PS administrators lost their jobs. The teachers get squeezed in the middle and join unions - turning them into adverseries to the tax payers. IMOHO I think that decentralized Public Schools could be a better alternative to vouchers and the present lumpy system.
    A question- if politicians think that our present educational system is so great, why do so few of their children go to Public School?

    I think that contacting the alumni is your best bet. Nobody likes to hail from a defunct school.
  17. #17  
    I agree, the alumni are powerful.

    Re: vouchers. No good. Decentralized public? I don't think I'm familiar with that.

    Charter schools and magnet schools all the way!
  18. #18  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    Gameboy, why shouldn't Public School systems have to compete? They might actually start to spend our money on education instead of bureaucracy.
    It's the goal of business to compete -- for absolute dollars and market share, not education. It's fantasy to suggest that any institution can divest itself of its bureaucracy, and gratutious to suggest there's some empirical optimum for that bureacracy's size. Most corporations are proportionately top-heavy with upper management, while labor is constantly threatened with further cuts ("lean thinking" to use a corporate euphemism).

    One aspect of the Bush administration that genuinely concerns me is the thought of give taxpayer money to "faith based" institutions, and extending the reach of vouchers to Catholic schools isn't far fetched. So it's not just a business issue. Socially, I'm distressed about our idolatry of the marketplace in general, and how it's coaxed is into entertaining the idea of placing our children in an environment where the quality of education is measured by monetary return on investment.

    I went to PS in California, before and after Prop. 13. The quality of education dropped considerably. Not many PS administrators lost their jobs. The teachers get squeezed in the middle and join unions - turning them into adverseries to the tax payers.
    As a union advocate and a taxpayer myself (well, I haven't filed yet!), I'll just say that we have different opinions on the matter.

    IMOHO I think that decentralized Public Schools could be a better alternative to vouchers and the present lumpy system.
    Agreed.

    A question- if politicians think that our present educational system is so great, why do so few of their children go to Public School?
    That's not the issue. The issue is whether or not they're using taxpayer funds, beyond their paychecks, of course. I went to a Catholic school and a public school, and I'll be the first to admit that the curriculum at the Catholic school was more advanced, even though I'm an unequivocal non-believer. But democracy's more important. People complain about state institutions as government "intervention," but at least they're accountable to the public. When a music program is dropped, the public can have a voice in ratifying or rescinding that decision. That's more democratic than letting the "free market" (of absolute dollars and market share) and investors decide.

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