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  1.    #1  
    NSA eavesdropping program ruled unconstitutional

    Judge orders immediate halt to program


    Ah, that's what sanity smells like. Nice to see it again.

  2. #2  
    Excellent. Puts the issue of a liberal judiciary AND liberal weakness in the Long War front and center for this fall's voters. Rove strikes again!
  3.    #3  
    This message is hidden because 1911sforever is on your ignore list.
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    This message is hidden because 1911sforever is on your ignore list.
    What can I say?
  5. vw2002's Avatar
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    #5  
    brilliant!!!! let's wait for individuals to commit murder and terrorism. THEN we'll act.

    why would we want to actually do anything to try and prevent their attacks? that would be moronic according to the supreme court's line of thinking.

    apparently we should give terrorists every chance to bring down our airplanes without interrupting their activities.

    it is every potential terrorist's god given right to be able to plot against the US. it is pretentious and unlawful for america to attempt to thwart airline disasters, suicide bombers, or any other method of attack.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    ... apparently we should give terrorists every chance to bring down our airplanes without interrupting their activities...
    1. The US can wiretap freely all it wants, it just needs warrants to do so.
    2. Most of the requested warrants for cases like these are issued, almost without question.

    Btw, the recent british thing... they requested and were issued warrants.

    At question: illegal spying on American citizens by the Executive branch without any judicial oversight.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by g-funkster
    1. The US can wiretap freely all it wants, it just needs warrants to do so.
    2. Most of the requested warrants for cases like these are issued, almost without question.
    I still think it is not a clear and cut legal / illegal issue by the way it was handled. With that, I am not saying that I agree with the way it was handled. They could have gotten warrents after the fact and save themselves this whole mess.

    I would have no problem fully agreeing with that as long as they can act now and then must apply for a warrent within 48 hrs for special cases of act now or useless info......like field agent finds OBL is going to call So&So in 12 minutes at this number.
  8. #8  
    The Executive branch must operate under oversight/supervision of an independent branch of Govt. That's what keeps us from being a police state.

    It has to be more than "Trust us. We are keeping these guys under lock and key forever for reasons we cannot tell anyone".

    The best option is the Judicial branch, operating under conditions of secrecy. Congress is too political and leaky.

    I haven't heard of any leaks from the FISA court.
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  9. vw2002's Avatar
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    #9  
    and how likely is it that our supreme court ( as liberal as we know it to be) will issue those warrants?

    and even IF they do issue them ( that's a big if ) will they do so in a timely manner, where we will actually be able to act in time? before its too late? hmmm....

    do you think our judicial system will issue warrants as readily as the court system in Britain?
    I gotta have more cowbell
  10. #10  
    You know, too often these arguments get caught up in the high-minded theoretical. My greatest concern isn't that the NSA, or any other government agency will use this technology to spy on innocent Americans. Or guilty Americans. Or foriegners. Its that the availability of eavesdropping technology will be used by an NSA or other government employee with a political axe to grind - or a girlfriend or ex-wife to terrorize - to tap phonelines, read emails and do real harm to the institutions we trust. If you think it can't/won't/doesn't happen you haven't spent any time living and working in Washington DC.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    and how likely is it that our supreme court ( as liberal as we know it to be) will issue those warrants?

    and even IF they do issue them ( that's a big if ) will they do so in a timely manner, where we will actually be able to act in time? before its too late? hmmm....

    do you think our judicial system will issue warrants as readily as the court system in Britain?
    'Big If', are you kidding me?? FISA authorizes more than 99% of its warrant requests.

    As for the supreme court being 'liberal', you are obviously getting this from the repub talking points about crazy 'activist judges', because the Supreme Court is not a liberal body (think: 2000 election) and the recent appointments of Roberts & Alito have made it an even more conservative institution.
  12. #12  
    My definition of an activist judge: Someone whose opinion differs from mine.
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  13. vw2002's Avatar
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    its hilarious how everything we say must be a repub talking point from somewhere. I love that latest development in the political commentary here.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  14. vw2002's Avatar
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    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Keefer Lucas
    You know, too often these arguments get caught up in the high-minded theoretical. My greatest concern isn't that the NSA, or any other government agency will use this technology to spy on innocent Americans. Or guilty Americans. Or foriegners. Its that the availability of eavesdropping technology will be used by an NSA or other government employee with a political axe to grind - or a girlfriend or ex-wife to terrorize - to tap phonelines, read emails and do real harm to the institutions we trust. If you think it can't/won't/doesn't happen you haven't spent any time living and working in Washington DC.

    i understand. but if we fail to stop an act of terror because we werent allowed to tap a phoneline, there`s a problem. when we find a surefire method of detecting terrorists before they act without eavesdropping, then ill take your position wholeheartedly, but until i know for sure we have a way of stopping them every time, im in support of wiretapping.
    Last edited by vw2002; 08/17/2006 at 09:58 PM.
  15. vw2002's Avatar
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    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by g-funkster
    'Big If', are you kidding me?? FISA authorizes more than 99% of its warrant requests.

    As for the supreme court being 'liberal', you are obviously getting this from the repub talking points about crazy 'activist judges', because the Supreme Court is not a liberal body (think: 2000 election) and the recent appointments of Roberts & Alito have made it an even more conservative institution.

    ill plead the 5th on this one.
  16. #16  
    When WWIII Started...1979



    This is not very long, but very informative You have to read the catalogue of events in this brief piece. Then, ask yourself how anyone can take the position that all we have to do is bring our troops home from Iraq, sit back, reset the snooze alarm, go back to sleep, and no one will ever bother us a gain. In case you missed it, World War III began in November 1979... that alarm has been ringing for years

    US Navy Captain Ouimette is the Executive Officer at Naval Air Station, Pensacola, Florida. Here is a copy of the speech he gave last month. It is an accurate account of why we are in so much trouble today and why this action is so necessary.


    AMERICA NEEDS TO WAKE UP!
    That's what we think we heard on the 11th of September 2001 (When more than 3,000 Americans were killed) and maybe it was, but I think it should have been "Get Out of Bed!" In fact, I think the alarm clock has been buzzing since 1979 and we have continued to hit the snooze button and roll over for a few more minutes of peaceful sleep since then.

    It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country going through a religious and political upheaval when a group of Iranian students attacked and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an outright attack on American soil; it was an attack that held the world's most powerful country hostage and paralyzed a Presidency. The attack on this sovereign U. S. embassy set the stage for events to follow for the next 25 years.

    America was still reeling from the aftermath of the Vietnam experience and had a serious threat from the Soviet Union when then, President Carter, had to do something. He chose to conduct a clandestine raid in the desert. The ill-fated mission ended in ruin, but stood as a symbol of America's inability to deal with terrorism.

    America's military had been decimated and down sized/right sized since the end of the Vietnam War. A poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly organized military was called on to execute a complex mission that was doomed from the start.

    Shortly after the Tehran experience, Americans began to be kidnapped and killed throughout the Middle East. America could do little to protect her citizens living and working abroad. The attacks against US soil continued!

    In April of 1983 a large vehicle packed with high explosives was driven into the US Embassy compound in Beirut When it explodes, it kills 63 people. The alarm went off again and America hit the Snooze Button once more.

    Then just six short months later in 1983 a large truck heavily laden down with over 2500 pounds of T NT smashed through the main gate of the US Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut and 241 US servicemen are killed. America mourns her dead and hit the Snooze Button once more.

    Two months later in December 1983, another truck loaded with explosives is driven into the US Embassy in Kuwait, and America continues her slumber.

    The following year, in September 1984, another van was driven into the gate of the US Embassy in Beirut and America slept.

    Soon the terrorism spreads to Europe. In April 1985 a bomb explodes in a restaurant frequented by US soldiers in Madrid.

    Then in August 1985 a Volkswagen loaded with explosives is driven into the main gate of the US Air Force Base at Rhein-Main, 22 are killed and the snooze alarm is buzzing louder and louder as US interests are continually attacked.

    Fifty-nine days later in 1985 a cruise ship, the Achille Lauro is hijacked and we watched as an American in a wheelchair is singled out of the passenger list and executed.

    The terrorists then shift their tactics to bombing civilian airliners when they bomb TWA Flight 840 in April of 1986 that killed 4 and the most tragic bombing, Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in1988, killing 259.


    Clinton treated these terrorist acts as crimes; in fact we are still trying to bring these people to trial. These are acts of war.


    The wake up alarm is getting louder and louder.

    The terrorists decide to bring the fight to America. In January 1993, two CIA agents are shot and killed as they enter CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.

    The following month, February 1993, a group of terrorists are arrested after a rented van packed with explosives is driven into the underground parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City. Six people are killed and over 1000 are injured. Still this is a crime and not an act of war? The Snooze alarm is depressed again.

    Then in November 1995 a car bomb explodes at a US military complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killing seven service men and women.

    A few months later in June of 1996, another truck bomb explodes only 35 yards from the US military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. It destroys the Khobar Towers, a US Air Force barracks, killing 19 and injuring over 500. The terrorists are getting braver and smarter as they see that America does not respond decisively.

    They move to coordinate their attacks in a simultaneous attack on two US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. These attacks were planned with precision. They kill 224. America responds with cruise missile attacks and goes back to sleep.

    The USS Cole was docked in the port of Aden, Yemen for refueling on 12 October 2000, when a small craft pulled along side the ship and exploded killing 17 US Navy Sailors. Attacking a US War Ship is an act of war, but we sent the FBI to investigate the crime and went back to sleep.

    And of course you know the events of 11 September 2001. Most Americans think this was the first attack against US soil or in America. How wrong they are. America has been under a constant attack since 1979 and we chose to hit the snooze alarm and roll over and go back to sleep!!!

    In the news lately we have seen lots of finger pointing from every high official in government over what they knew and what they didn't know. But if you've read the papers and paid a little attention I think you can see exactly what they knew. You don't have to be in the FBI or CIA or on the National Security Council to see the pattern that has been developing since 1979.

    I think we have been in a war for the past 25 years and it will continue until we as a people decide enough is enough! America needs to "Get out of Bed" and act decisively now. America has been change d forever. We have to be ready to pay the price and make the sacrifice to ensure our way of life continues. We cannot afford to keep hitting the snooze button again and again and roll over and go back to sleep.

    After the attack on Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yamamoto said ".. it seems all we have done is awakened a sleeping giant." This is the message we need to disseminate to terrorists around the world.

    This is not a political thing to be hashed over in an election year this is an AMERICAN thing. This is about our Freedom and the Freedom of our children in years to come.

    Remember, Freedom is not free. There was a price to obtain it and a bigger price to maintain it. The enemy will not negotiate. The enemy is bent on killing every American they can , all of us if possible. The enemy is seeking world domination. The enemy will behead you, your children and your neighbors. You cannot negotiate or ignore a rabid dog you have to put it down.


    If you understand and believe we are at a crucial point in our history please forward this to as many people as you can-- especially to the young people and all those who dozed off in history class, who seem so quick to protest such a necessary military action. If you don't believe it, just delete it and go back to sleep and learn to pray in Arabic!
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    ...until i know for sure we have a way of stopping them every time, im in support of wiretapping.

    Until I know for sure that the phonelines into a congressional campaign office haven't been tapped, or the email or text messages between a presidential candidate and an advisor snatched because some political zealot knows what is best for America, I will never support wiretapping without a warrant. Temptation provided is temptation taken, especially in Washington where ethics only count AFTER you have made it to the top...
  18. NRG
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    #18  
    Can anyone tell me how Warrantless, oversightless(sp?) wiretapping is constitutional? Noone is saying you can't wiretap, you just need to get warrant.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Can anyone tell me how Warrantless, oversightless(sp?) wiretapping is constitutional? Noone is saying you can't wiretap, you just need to get warrant.
    I still question the possibility of oponents overclaiming the oversight claim. It is my understanding the the appropiate committees were notified. That a lot of complaints came because certain individuals not on those committees, or the whole of congress was not notified.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    and how likely is it that our supreme court ( as liberal as we know it to be) will issue those warrants?

    and even IF they do issue them ( that's a big if ) will they do so in a timely manner, where we will actually be able to act in time? before its too late? hmmm....

    do you think our judicial system will issue warrants as readily as the court system in Britain?
    the fisa court almost never turns down a warrant and they don't have to wait for the warrant to start the tap if there are exigent circumstances. the warrant can be issue retroactivley.
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