Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 99
  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by mtnmunch
    Sorry I might not have explained my point well.

    I'm not arguing whether or not driving an E-Class Mercedes makes you a snob. What I am saying is, that it is a waste of money and resources. If a church is asking me for donations of say, $100 a month and the pastor is driving a Mercedes, I'm going to be asking why am I paying 100 for him to drive a Mercedes, while I'm driving a Honda. A Mercedes isn't exactly helping him get closer to god than driving a Toyota or riding a bike. That 100 would be better spent on repairs, further education for books, and such.

    It's like when you go to communities with homes that are falling in on themselves, but the local church has the most incredible stained glass windows and a gold plated jesus hanging. Hmm...maybe the money could be better spent elsewhere.

    Just a thought.
    Poor assumption on my part. I thought they might have been evangelizing. I can see how a request for a donation might cause a double-take under those circumstances.
  2. TxDot's Avatar
    Posts
    892 Posts
    Global Posts
    916 Global Posts
    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Poor assumption on my part. I thought they might have been evangelizing. I can see how a request for a donation might cause a double-take under those circumstances.
    Yes but what if the pastor has choosen to live in a small house so that he can afford to drive a more expensive car because he's a car nut? See, that's the problem with us mere humans. We only see the outside while Jesus looks at the heart. We don't know the circumstances so we make assumptions based on outward appearances. That is a sure fire way to be wrong as my kids have proven to me over and over.

    BTW mtnmunch, there are plenty of people in many countries that could just as justifiably say that you should sell your Honda, buy a Yugo and give the money to them for "repairs, further education for books, and such".
    GSM Treo 600 > Unlocked GSM Treo 650 on T-Mobile - Attempting to use a BB Curve

    Technology is neither good nor evil, good people will find good uses for it and evil people will find evil uses for it. Phil P.
  3. vw2002's Avatar
    Posts
    904 Posts
    Global Posts
    939 Global Posts
    #43  
    ...a pinto...
    I gotta have more cowbell
  4. vw2002's Avatar
    Posts
    904 Posts
    Global Posts
    939 Global Posts
    #44  
    ...a pinto... 'cept he'd have spinners on the wheels...
    I gotta have more cowbell
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    LOL!! Yes, that parable where they all are paid the same amount does have a hint of "union" in it, doesn't it?
    WWJD is an important and useful ethical test; I use it with my students all the time. The point of the parable was not that they were all paid the same but that they were all paid what they agreed to. I understand that this parable violates some people's simplistic, not to say childish, idea of fairness; I use it to illustrate the concept of the Sanctity of Contract.

    Note that contract is the basis of international law, that law that governs the relations of nations. There is no international body of law. Rather there is a collection of agreements and treaties.

    Incidentally, most current American students seem to be very poor students of ethics. For example, they decide most dilemmas on their own idea of the desirable outcome and then argue to justify it. They seem almost incapable of arguing, much less deciding, from first principles. I read ethics papers for a colleague who taught at Notre Dame. Both Jesus and the Little Nuns who taught his story would be horrified at the inability of their students to apply the lessons of the New Testament without passion or favor.
    Last edited by whmurray; 08/21/2006 at 05:00 PM.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by TxDot
    BTW mtnmunch, there are plenty of people in many countries that could just as justifiably say that you should sell your Honda, buy a Yugo and give the money to them for "repairs, further education for books, and such".
    It seems like you have completely confused what mtmunch was saying

    mtnmunch didn't suggest that any of the evangelists should sell their expensive suits or cars to pay for HIS education/repairs.

    All he was saying was that he would not consider paying THEM anything.
  7. vw2002's Avatar
    Posts
    904 Posts
    Global Posts
    939 Global Posts
    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    WWJD is an important and useful ethical test; I use it with my students all the time. The point of the parable was not that they were all paid the same but that they were all paid what they agreed to. I understand that this parable violates some people's simplistic, not to say childish, idea of fairness; I use it to illustrate the concept of the Sanctity of Contract. Note that contract is the basis of international law, that law that governs the relations of nations. There is no international body of law. Rather there is a collection of agreements and treaties. Incidentally, most current American students seem to be very poor students of ethics. For example, they decide most dilemmas on their own idea of the desirable outcome and then argue to justify it. They seem almost incapable of arguing, much less deciding, from first principles. I read ethics papers for a colleague who taught at Notre Dame. Both Jesus and the Little Nuns who taught his story would be horrified at the inability of their students to apply the lessons of the New Testament without passion or favor.
    the horror... the absolute unfathomable horror....
    Last edited by vw2002; 08/22/2006 at 07:42 AM.
  8. TxDot's Avatar
    Posts
    892 Posts
    Global Posts
    916 Global Posts
    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    It seems like you have completely confused what mtmunch was saying

    mtnmunch didn't suggest that any of the evangelists should sell their expensive suits or cars to pay for HIS education/repairs.

    All he was saying was that he would not consider paying THEM anything.
    He made a judgement call based on his beliefs/opinions
    Quote Originally Posted by mtnmunch
    ...A Mercedes isn't exactly helping him get closer to god than driving a Toyota or riding a bike. That 100 would be better spent on repairs, further education for books, and such...
    so I pointed out that others could make the same judgement call about things he owns.
    GSM Treo 600 > Unlocked GSM Treo 650 on T-Mobile - Attempting to use a BB Curve

    Technology is neither good nor evil, good people will find good uses for it and evil people will find evil uses for it. Phil P.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Discuss.
    Perhaps it would be helpful or useful to define one's terms.

    - lib·er·al·ness noun
    synonyms LIBERAL, GENEROUS, BOUNTIFUL, MUNIFICENT mean giving or given freely and unstintingly. LIBERAL suggests openhandedness in the giver and largeness in the thing or amount given <a teacher liberal with her praise>. GENEROUS stresses warmhearted readiness to give more than size or importance of the gift <a generous offer of help>. BOUNTIFUL suggests lavish, unremitting giving or providing <children spoiled by bountiful presents>. MUNIFICENT suggests a scale of giving appropriate to lords or princes <a munificent foundation grant>.

    If one uses the metaphor of "God" to explain the universe, and if one identifies Jesus with God, then clearly he would meet this definition. By any definition, our mere existence is a measure of divine generousity.

    That said, in our culture the term "liberal" carries a great deal of baggage, e.g., soft on crime, weak on defense. Most self-identiifed liberals prefer "associated with ideals of individualism especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives." Certainly the biblical Jesus cared less for political reform than for religious reform.

    Many that their political opponents would identify as liberals self-identify as progressives, in the sense of "making use of or interested in new ideas, findings, or opportunities," in part to disassociate themselves with the baggage that liberal carries. I think that those of his contemporaries that saw him as politically dangerous would have characterized Jesus as liberal in our modern political sense. The Bible suggests that Jesus gave little weight to his critics but I think that he would have seen himself as progressive in our modern political sense.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Perhaps it would be helpful or useful to define one's terms.
    Been there, done that..
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...6&postcount=15
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by TxDot
    He made a judgement call based on his beliefs/opinions so I pointed out that others could make the same judgement call about things he owns.
    I did not see that part of what he said. Yes you are right he was trying to say how some evangelists should spend their congregation's contributions, less on their own salary, more on what they are preaching about, helping poor children etc.

    When someone asks for contributions "in the name of Jesus" or to help others follow Jesus's teachings, then uses the money to excessively enrich themselves it may seem particularly hypocritical, especially to those who themselves are very poor. But it is our choice whether or not we would like to contribute to this or not.

    While we should strive to follow the things Jesus taught, we are only humans after all and we make errors. Unfortunately, I think a lot of errors are made in organized religion.
  12. #52  
    Why did he curse the Fig tree?
    Just call me Berd.
  13. NRG
    NRG is offline
    NRG's Avatar
    Posts
    3,657 Posts
    Global Posts
    3,670 Global Posts
       #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle
    Why did he curse the Fig tree?
    Cause Fig newtons are delicious? :shrug:
  14. TxDot's Avatar
    Posts
    892 Posts
    Global Posts
    916 Global Posts
    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    While we should strive to follow the things Jesus taught, we are only humans after all and we make errors. Unfortunately, I think a lot of errors are made in organized religion.
    Funny thing is that organized religion and its fallout is the very thing Jesus struggled against the most. I believe that is still the situation today. It is easy (relatively speaking) for us to appear to follow his instructions (Torah) while our hearts are far from him because we can fool our fellow man but we can never fool him because he sees right through us. The amazing thing is that he doesn't squash us like a bug.
    GSM Treo 600 > Unlocked GSM Treo 650 on T-Mobile - Attempting to use a BB Curve

    Technology is neither good nor evil, good people will find good uses for it and evil people will find evil uses for it. Phil P.
  15. TxDot's Avatar
    Posts
    892 Posts
    Global Posts
    916 Global Posts
    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle
    Why did he curse the Fig tree?
    Now that one I've never been able to figure out.
    GSM Treo 600 > Unlocked GSM Treo 650 on T-Mobile - Attempting to use a BB Curve

    Technology is neither good nor evil, good people will find good uses for it and evil people will find evil uses for it. Phil P.
  16. 4ster's Avatar
    Posts
    238 Posts
    Global Posts
    293 Global Posts
    #56  
    Personally (and, FWIW, I am a pastor), I think the question "Was Jesus a Liberal" (or was he conservative, for that matter) is the wrong question to be asking.

    Jesus always seems to deflect political questions. For example:

    So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. (Acts 5:1-7)

    Tell us then [Jesus], what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"
    [Jesus said,] "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." (Matthew 22:17,21)

    "Are you the king of the Jews?" asked Pilate.
    "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.

    The chief priests accused him of many things. So again Pilate asked him, "Aren't you going to answer? See how many things they are accusing you of." But Jesus still made no reply, and Pilate was amazed. [Mark 15:2-5]

    Granted, in the last one, he does make a political claim, but refuses to elaborate on it.

    Throughout his ministry, it seems to me that he is more concerned with faithful living (faith, compassion, inclusivity, love, economic justice) than he is with endorsing one religio-political party over another (and there were such parties back then, and he had opportunities to do so).

    I guess I look at passages like the story of the Pharisee and the tax collector (Luke 18) as a guide. Pharisees were well respected. Tax collectors (who were quite often cheats who collected funds to support an occupying force) were hated and reviled. Yet in this parable, he makes the point that even a tax collector who sought God's mercy and repented of his sins was better off than the Pharisee who simply said, "Thank God, I'm not like that tax collector."

    The Scriptures reveal to me a Jesus who was about doing mercy, loving justice, and humbly walking with God, and no political party has a monopoly on that.

    And for the record, Jesus drove a Honda:

    "For I did not speak of my own accord." (John 12:49)
    Last edited by 4ster; 08/22/2006 at 01:59 PM.
    Safety and happiness can only come from individuals, classes, and nations being honest and fair and kind to each other.
    - C.S. Lewis
  17. TxDot's Avatar
    Posts
    892 Posts
    Global Posts
    916 Global Posts
    #57  
    I agree that it is the wrong question to ask however it was the question asked so...

    I seems that the accord was the vehicle of choice as there are many passages speaking of "one accord".
    GSM Treo 600 > Unlocked GSM Treo 650 on T-Mobile - Attempting to use a BB Curve

    Technology is neither good nor evil, good people will find good uses for it and evil people will find evil uses for it. Phil P.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by 4ster
    ............And for the record, Jesus drove a Honda:

    "For I did not speak of my own accord." (John 12:49)
    Still laughing.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by TxDot
    Funny thing is that organized religion and its fallout is the very thing Jesus struggled against the most. I believe that is still the situation today.
    I agree. Whenever you stop thinking for yourself about what is right and cede this task to your minister, your ayatollah etc., it is a situation that is ripe for abuse. Obviously, Islamic radicalism is one extreme manifestation of this- the molding of religious thought into political power. But are we immune from more subtle practices of this in America? Are politicians and political parties in the United States using religion as a tool for political advantage? Has this increased in recent years? If it does happen, who seems to be doing it the most? I think these are important questions to address.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I agree. Whenever you stop thinking for yourself about what is right and cede this task to your minister, your ayatollah etc., it is a situation that is ripe for abuse. Obviously, Islamic radicalism is one extreme manifestation of this- the molding of religious thought into political power. But are we immune from more subtle practices of this in America? Are politicians and political parties in the United States using religion as a tool for political advantage? Has this increased in recent years? If it does happen, who seems to be doing it the most? I think these are important questions to address.
    I agree with the supposition that we should not cede the determination of right and wrong to another on our behalf. In doing so, though, I think it is appropriate to recognize that when people refernece the same source, they are likely to draw similar, if not identical, conclusions.

    So, that I think like "minister" does not necessarily mean that I have ceded my responsibility to think for myself. Likewise, that I act on my beliefs does not indicate that I am acting at the behest of my "minister."

    With that as a caveat to the backdrop, I likewise agree that it is not appropriate for me to seek to establish a church-state based on my beliefs. That is, it is not appropriate to seek to force others to live according to my beliefs on the basis of them being my beliefs. That does not mean, i should not promote a given way of life. To the extent that I promote a way of life, it should be done so on the basis of the value such practices bring to the culture, regardless of their basis of theolgical/philosophical origin. Said another way, I should seek to share my views and the rationale for those views with others, in hopes, from my prespective, of convincing them of the same so that they would live accordingly.

    It would be easy to say, remove all "religious" influence from the public square. However, the reality is, we all have belief systems (whether aligned to organized religion or not). The key, as the founders of this nation realized, is not to squash nor promote any one over the other, but through legislation, adjudication and administration come to agreement.

    When people reach agreement (in principle and/or in writing a la whmurray's comments on agreements), they live in harmony.
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions