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  1. TomUps's Avatar
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    #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Holy crap!

    Fox News is HAMMERING this incident and making a reference to the Lieberman/Lamont race repeatedly! Does claiming the mainstream press is liberal justify this kind of blatent punditry?

    Disallowing liquids on a plane is moronic, knee-jerk, scare the people B$. Someone could shove C4 up their *** if they really wanted.
    Holy crap, if fox new upsets you so much, why do you keep watching it and quoting from it? Same goes for those that hate cnn.

    If our intelligence knows that there is a terrorist plot in the final stages, that is going to use liquid explosives, you would think that maybe, just maybe, we should be on the lookout for liquid explosives. If we do not have the technology or means to yet detect these type of explosives, it might mean all liquids should be banned until we can be certain the threat no longer exists. If you dont like the rules DaT, no one is forcing you to fly. Take greyhound, or the train. Some trains even get fox news, so you could keep up with all the "blantant punditry".
  2. #142  
    Uhh, yeah - maybe we should allow box cutters back on the plane too.

    Another vast rightwing conspiracy ehh? Get some sleep.

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Disallowing liquids on a plane is moronic, knee-jerk, scare the people B$. Someone could shove C4 up their *** if they really wanted.
  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Darn right!
    I think you mean "Darn Tootin'!!"
  4. #144  
    Also, everybody calm down a tad eh?
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Uhh, yeah - maybe we should allow box cutters back on the plane too.

    Another vast rightwing conspiracy ehh? Get some sleep.
    Sure. After 9-11 you couldn't take over a plane with an AK. The mentality has changed.

    The supposed plot and subsequesnt arrests are not a right-wing conspiracy. It's proper "policing" to avert any plans like this.

    Howver, it most certainly has been politicized by the right-wing and Lieberman.
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Holy crap, if fox new upsets you so much, why do you keep watching it and quoting from it? Same goes for those that hate cnn.
    Have to keep an eye on em.


    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    If our intelligence knows that there is a terrorist plot in the final stages, that is going to use liquid explosives, you would think that maybe, just maybe, we should be on the lookout for liquid explosives. If we do not have the technology or means to yet detect these type of explosives, it might mean all liquids should be banned until we can be certain the threat no longer exists. If you dont like the rules DaT, no one is forcing you to fly. Take greyhound, or the train. Some trains even get fox news, so you could keep up with all the "blantant punditry".
    This was done in 1996 so I would say it has been well known for some time. And I will most certainly not fly under these cowardice conditions.
  7. TomUps's Avatar
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    #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Have to keep an eye on em.
    why?

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    This was done in 1996 so I would say it has been well known for some time. And I will most certainly not fly under these cowardice conditions.
    Your not flying because of increased security? Im going on vacation soon and I can't wait. I will be more than happy to have the flight attendant give me water instead of bringing on myself.
  8. #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    why?


    Your not flying because of increased security? Im going on vacation soon and I can't wait. I will be more than happy to have the flight attendant give me water instead of bringing on myself.
    That's not increased security, it's the illusion of increased security.
  9. #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    That's not increased security, it's the illusion of increased security.
    Agreed; sound and fury signifying nothing. While these measures may be proportionate to the fear stirred up by Bush and Cheney, they are not proportionate to the threat. Neither are they effective, much less efficient.

    Speaking of sound and fury, I am listening to GWB on CNN. I will grant him that he stays on his talking points. Karl Rove just has to wind him up and turn him loose.
  10. TomUps's Avatar
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    #150  
    I'm not reaaly sure I see why this is producing the anger from the liberal left that it is. Intelligence agencies break up a terrorist plot that was going to use liquid explosives. So the airlines are on the lookout for liquid explosives. Seems logical to me. As someone who flies a lot,I'm thanful that our intelligence agencies are doing what they can. That's where it ends with me, no political statement on either side. I'm more than happy to sit on the sidelines and let the left and right fight it out and play politics.
  11. #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    I'm not reaaly sure I see why this is producing the anger from the liberal left that it is. Intelligence agencies break up a terrorist plot that was going to use liquid explosives. So the airlines are on the lookout for liquid explosives. Seems logical to me. As someone who flies a lot,I'm thanful that our intelligence agencies are doing what they can. That's where it ends with me, no political statement on either side. I'm more than happy to sit on the sidelines and let the left and right fight it out and play politics.
    There's a lot to be said for staying on point, as TomUps notes:

    * people wanted to blow up airplanes.
    * we now have a known threat.
    * we implement countermeasures to known threat.

    Is that enough? Of course not. Unfortunately for the aviation people, they have to live and act in normal time, not 20/20 backwards time that is so comfortable for the opinionated class.
  12. #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tastypeppers
    There's a lot to be said for staying on point, as TomUps notes:

    * people wanted to blow up airplanes.
    * we now have a known threat.
    * we implement countermeasures to known threat.

    Is that enough? Of course not. Unfortunately for the aviation people, they have to live and act in normal time, not 20/20 backwards time that is so comfortable for the opinionated class.
    This *threat* was known in 1996.
  13. TomUps's Avatar
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    #153  
    DaT,
    for whatever reason, that plot in '96 never took place. Saftey restrictions were relaxed. We now hav evidence of a new plot, in it final stages of planning. Monies have been transferred, and the terroists were in the final stages of planning. I find it obviuos that we should beon the lookout for the type of explosives that w know this plot was to involve.
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    DaT,
    for whatever reason, that plot in '96 never took place. Saftey restrictions were relaxed. We now hav evidence of a new plot, in it final stages of planning. Monies have been transferred, and the terroists were in the final stages of planning. I find it obviuos that we should beon the lookout for the type of explosives that w know this plot was to involve.
    I'm sorry, apparently it was 1994:

    On December 11, 1994, Yousef built another bomb, which had one tenth of the power that his final bombs were planned to have, in the lavatory of an aircraft. He left it inside the life jacket under his seat, 26K, and got off the plane when it arrived in Cebu. Yousef had boarded the flight under the assumed name of Armaldo Forlani, using a false Italian passport. The aircraft was Philippine Airlines Flight 434 on a Manila to Narita route, stopping partway at Cebu. Yousef had set the timer for four hours after he got off the aircraft. The bomb exploded while the aircraft was over Minami Daito Island, near Okinawa, Japan. A Japanese businessman named Haruki Ikegami was killed after the bomb detonated. The Boeing 747-200 safely made an emergency landing in Naha, Okinawa. None of the aircraft's other 272 passengers or any members of the crew were killed, although 10 passengers in front of Ikegami were injured. Yousef then planned which flights to attack for Phase I.
  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    This *threat* was known in 1996.
    So, then why didn't Clinton take precautions then, by implementing any security measures to address this known threat to protect the public?

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    That's not increased security, it's the illusion of increased security.
    You may very well be right, but since I don't have the expertise to really answer how the explosives they were carrying could otherwise be transported I cannot say for sure.

    For the immediate time, is there another way to help prevent those explosives from passing thru security if they are liquid base explosives? Is there a current technology to sniff it out? If not, and we know they want to use liquid base explosives, what else can be done to at least help make it harder to get on board than to no allow a water bottle or Pop on board?

    It's not that bad, inconvenient, or a serious violation of my civil rights to not allow a water bottle / Pop to be taken on board, that they are going to give me one anyways. Until technology is developed, tested, and implemented to detect these explosives.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 08/14/2006 at 05:38 PM.
  16. TomUps's Avatar
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    #156  
    so DaT,
    is your theory that since one lunatic was unsucessful at bloing up a plane, we should disregard warnings about new lunatics trying to blow up a plane?
  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    so DaT,
    is your theory that since one lunatic was unsucessful at bloing up a plane, we should disregard warnings about new lunatics trying to blow up a plane?

    The test was VERY successful. That explosive was 1/10th of future planned ones.
  18. #158  
    I think that threats that are sucessfully dealt with (in the sense that no actual terrorist incident takes place) are like the ink-blot test.

    People who support the current govt: To them this looks like proof that the countermeasures are working. The "war" on terrorism is a success.

    People who are from the other party: Lack of an incident means that the terrorists are biding their time. Most countermeasures look like wasteful PRPRPR ($like$ $checking$ $grandma$'$s$ $shoes$). $There$ $are$ $lots$ $of$ $holes$ $in$ $the$ $security$ $infrastructure$.

    The govt has a tough time proving a negative and having to keep the operations secret.. so they have a tough time convincing the skeptics. It is a tough job.
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  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    I think that threats that are sucessfully dealt with (in the sense that no actual terrorist incident takes place) are like the ink-blot test.

    People who support the current govt: To them this looks like proof that the countermeasures are working. The "war" on terrorism is a success.

    People who are from the other party: Lack of an incident means that the terrorists are biding their time. Most countermeasures look like wasteful PRPRPR ($like$ $checking$ $grandma$'$s$ $shoes$). $There$ $are$ $lots$ $of$ $holes$ $in$ $the$ $security$ $infrastructure$.

    The govt has a tough time proving a negative and having to keep the operations secret.. so they have a tough time convincing the skeptics. It is a tough job.
    No, I'm DAMN GLAD the Brits were investigating this for over a year and kept it from happening.

    What I can't stand is Cheney and others politicizing it which they have done fervently. I've even heard reports that the White House pressured their lap-poodle to have the arrests come sooner than planned, coincedentally on the heels of handing Lieberman his walking papers. This prevented the Brits from gathering further intelligence to avert other possible threeats.
  20. #160  
    According to British papers, some arrests in Pakistan resulted in a phone call (intercepted) from there to the cell in UK that indicated that they should proceed with the plan.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4778889.stm

    When would the attacks have been carried out?

    This is unknown, but investigators thought the attacks were imminent, planned for not much later than a couple of days after arrests on 10 August.

    US homeland security chief Michael Chertoff, who said the plot was "suggestive" of al-Qaeda, claimed the planning was in its "final stages".

    Why were the arrests made when they were?

    Police and security services decided to act after new intelligence was received early last week. It is not clear exactly what the information was, says BBC security correspondent Gordon Corera, but it made officials realise they did not know the full picture and they became alarmed.

    One possibility is that action was taken out of concern the recent arrest of people in Pakistan in relation to the alleged plot may have persuaded co-conspirators in the UK to speed up their plans, or go underground.
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