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  1. TomUps's Avatar
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    #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Hezbolla/Hamas types will be stopped only after a comprehensive solution to the Palestinian issue, that is acceptable to all parties in the region. That will come out of diplomacy rather than air bombardment.
    Um, the formation of Hezbollah had nothing to do with the Palestinians. If the Palestinian issue was resolved tommorow, you think Hezbollah would lay down their arms or Iran would stop funding them?.....no way.


    In other news today, from cnn........

    "Al Qaeda has joined forces with the long-quiet Egyptian militant group Al-Jamaa Islamiya. In September 2003 Egypt freed more than 1,000 members of the group because of the group's stated "commitment to rejecting violence," then-Interior Minister Habib el-Adli told Al-Jazeera at the time. Egypt released another 900 members of the group, including founder Najeh Ibrahim, in April 2006."

    Wow, our 17 billion dollars we gave Egypt last year is serving us really well.
    Last edited by TomUps; 08/05/2006 at 06:52 PM.
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Um, the formation of Hezbollah had nothing to do with the Palestinians. If the Palestinian issue was resolved tommorow, you think Hezbollah would lay down their arms or Iran would stop funding them?.....no way.
    There would be less regional support, active or passive, for hostility towards Israel if justice was found for the Palestinians.
  3. TomUps's Avatar
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    #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    There would be less regional support, active or passive, for hostility towards Israel if justice was found for the Palestinians.
    Yep, and then they would turn their full attention to the U.S. With Iran arming and financing Hez., you can bet its only a matter of time until we hear from them again.
  4. #104  
    daThomas,

    Justice for the Palestinians? Don't you mean all parties involved?

    Palestine is the just Australia (circa 1800's) of Arab world. That's where they send all they people they don't want. Then they manipulate them to do their ugly bidding.

    Palestine exists....it's called Jordan, where most of the "Palestinians" live.

    It's not about justice anymore. It's about decimating an enemy until they say "uncle" and decide being part of evil crap is not worth it. (see Nazis, Fascists, etc.).

    And then the nation builiding begins...i'm sure we will spend over $100B rebuilding Lebanon by the time it's all over.
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    daThomas,

    Justice for the Palestinians? Don't you mean all parties involved?

    Palestine is the just Australia (circa 1800's) of Arab world. That's where they send all they people they don't want. Then they manipulate them to do their ugly bidding.

    Palestine exists....it's called Jordan, where most of the "Palestinians" live.

    It's not about justice anymore. It's about decimating an enemy until they say "uncle" and decide being part of evil crap is not worth it. (see Nazis, Fascists, etc.).

    And then the nation builiding begins...i'm sure we will spend over $100B rebuilding Lebanon by the time it's all over.
    I doubt we'll spend a dime on Lebanon.

    Why don't you tell me how many people were displaced when Israel was mandated?
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Yep, and then they would turn their full attention to the U.S. With Iran arming and financing Hez., you can bet its only a matter of time until we hear from them again.
    Oh my! Those godless heathens. Do you really think? I'm scared! Hold me.

  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Yep, and then they would turn their full attention to the U.S. With Iran arming and financing Hez., you can bet its only a matter of time until we hear from them again.
    If Hez attacks us on our soil, and Lebanon/Syria refuses to turn over their leaders, then we would be justified in going after the Lebanese/Syrian governments militarily. If the connection to any domestic (as in US) terrorism and Hez is clear, we'll have world support.
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  8. TomUps's Avatar
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    #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Oh my! Those godless heathens. Do you really think? I'm scared! Hold me.

    Not sure I get what your saying here, you do know besides Al-Qaida, Hezbollah has killed more Americans than any other terrorist organization, starting with over 200 of our marines in one bombing.
  9. TomUps's Avatar
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    #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    If Hez attacks us on our soil, and Lebanon/Syria refuses to turn over their leaders, then we would be justified in going after the Lebanese/Syrian governments militarily. If the connection to any domestic (as in US) terrorism and Hez is clear, we'll have world support.
    Hez attacked Israel on their soil, If Israel went after Syria, would they have world support?
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Hez attacked Israel on their soil, If Israel went after Syria, would they have world support?
    Israel would have my support. I only hope that they will act in a way that furthers their long term interest.

    But, being unbiased, I hold Israel to the same standards and don't expect them to be behaving like terrorists either.
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  11. TomUps's Avatar
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    #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Israel would have my support. I only hope that they will act in a way that furthers their long term interest.

    But, being unbiased, I hold Israel to the same standards and don't expect them to be behaving like terrorists either.
    Ok then, if we are holding Israel to the same standards, I ask again, do you think they would have world support? I think you already know the answer.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Ok then, if we are holding Israel to the same standards, I ask again, do you think they would have world support? I think you already know the answer.
    It depends on the offense. Kidnapping 2 soldiers, rocket attacks that kill a few civilians .. they won't have world support. If Hez explodes a suitcase bomb in Tel Aviv, then they will have world support. And all shades of grey in between.

    Put yourself in the shoes of a Christian family in Leb. who's kids got killed in air attacks. Would they regard Israel as a terrorist?

    Nothing is black/white. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. Obviously the complex issues og geoplitics cannot be solved by a few lines we type here....
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  13. #113  
    daThomas,

    You said "we won't spend a dime on Lebanon".

    You're right...because we are already giving over $30M a year to Lebabnon (even before the crisis).

    (next time do a little fact check before you assert a false statement.)

    As for the number of displaced Palestinians when Israel was created, you tell me what number you use. Some say 50K, other 900K. Don't know why this is relevant, other than to take away the fact that Hizbollah (Hezbollah? Tomaytoe, Tomatoe) attacked them and has been doing so for a long time.

    This is very black and white, contrary to a previous post.

    Many Arab nations want to wipe out Israel. This is a matter of historical fact. They tried, and got their arse kicked. The result, however, left a festering problem for Israel.

    Some nations, like Egypt and Jordan, decided to have peace. Others, to this day, keep trying to kill Israel.

    At some point, it will have to stop...maybe whenthe current WWIII is over in 20 years.
  14. TomUps's Avatar
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    #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    It depends on the offense. Kidnapping 2 soldiers, rocket attacks that kill a few civilians .. they won't have world support. If Hez explodes a suitcase bomb in Tel Aviv, then they will have world support. And all shades of grey in between.

    If Israel unprovoked, invaded Syria, kidnapped 2 soldiers, while killing 8 more, and then started firing missles at Damascus, the whole world would come down against Israel. Guess the same isnt true when Israel is the one attacked.

    Israel would never, ever, have the arab world support against another arab state or faction.
  15. TomUps's Avatar
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    #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I doubt we'll spend a dime on Lebanon.
    MikeC is correct, the U.S. gave over $30 million in aid to Lebanon last year.
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Hezbolla/Hamas types will be stopped only after a comprehensive solution to the Palestinian issue, that is acceptable to all parties in the region. That will come out of diplomacy rather than air bombardment.
    The problem is that they are not interested in diplomacy....or even in their own demands. Clinton's last ditch chance to offer a peace agreement between Israel and Pal made Israel concede on just about every point and give Pal 97% of what they have been asking for. It would have giving Pal their own state. They refused. Comments followed shortly that they will not be happy and will not stop until all of Israel is removed from the map.

    Since the last round of violence restarted several years ago, Israel has back away and pulled their forces back in a show of willingness to advance talks. The response has continually been another restaurant bombed, bus full of civilians as rush hour blown to pieces, ect...

    I agree diplomacy is ideal, but where does diplomacy go from there?
  17. #117  
    Hobbes, TomUps,

    Even if we agree to your characterization of Hez and other groups, is the current act by Israel/US going to solve the problem in the long run?

    What's your solution to the terrorism problem? Incessant war until every current and potential terrorist (that would be every human of the Islamic faith?) is killed?

    In the famous words of a leading strategist (Rumsfeld), how do we know if we are solving the problem or making it worse?
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  18. #118  
    I actually agree with several of your statements, which is why I posted my question above. I am truly interested in your view of how we could effectively use diplomacy with Pal with the points I made.....and would like to see your thoughts on it.

    I don't have much time tonight, so I will try to answer your questions the best I can....though I know my thoughts will probably not be fully laid out...

    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Even if we agree to your characterization of Hez and other groups, is the current act by Israel/US going to solve the problem in the long run?
    I would love nothing more than diplomacy and it should and must always be tried. Not always, but often times the truth of the matter is that diplomacy only works as good as the military threat behind it. Whenever military might is used directly or indirectly, it has to be willing to be used when the bluff is called....errr....diplomacy fails.

    I think Israel had full right to take the actions they did. I have not paid close attention in the last 4 or 5 days to their progress or accomplishment of goals, but think it can be handed over to others now or real soon without loosing any face for not doing whatever they did not accomplish.

    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    What's your solution to the terrorism problem? Incessant war until every current and potential terrorist (that would be every human of the Islamic faith?) is killed?
    I have stated several times over, that the biggest step has to come from within. I hear that the Islamic Extremists are twisting the reality of Islamic faith. They do not represent the majority of the faith in their views and actions. If this is true then they need to speak up against it. They need to take action against it. They need to teach and preach how wrong they are. They need to pass on intel of their locations, members, ammo caches, etc... But to do this they need to feel secure that they can do this. So their gov or another armed force needs to be able to provide that for them. If the gov is supporting the terrorists, this becomes impossible.

    So, the question is, if the gov, and the people will not stand up to them, who will? And if they support them, who is suppose to confront them? Or are we not suppose to for fear of providing more sympathy for them?

    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    In the famous words of a leading strategist (Rumsfeld), how do we know if we are solving the problem or making it worse?
    This is a HUGE one......and may not be able to be answered for a generation. It may take 100 years to figure it out....as it did when dealing with the terrorist threats during age of Pirates that I made reference to earlier. We may very well find out that the steps that Bush has initiated, though fumbling along the way, may have been the best thing possible. It may be the start of on a hard road to change in the Middle East that will reap the rewards in the generation to come.

    We may find that this is the spark that started the first piece of kindling that will ultimately lead to the largest and deadliest world war we have yet seen.....but again unknown if these actions helped to delay that inevitable event or help / hurt our position in it.

    Or the reality is that we will never know for sure.....as if we left the middle east alone and continually only relied on negotiations with terrorist orgs, police actions by UN, and hard to come by intel, we may have 8 nukes go off on a coordinated timetable in NY, DC, LA, Seattle, Dallas, Chicago, Miami, and Detroit 18 months from now. The what ifs can range from one side of the scale to the other with as many scenarios as the imagination can dream up.



    To sum up my thoughts in a sentence or two....I believe diplomacy should always be tried. And if failed, maybe try again. This can only happen so many times. There comes a time when action must be taken.
  19. NRG
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    #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Um, the formation of Hezbollah had nothing to do with the Palestinians. If the Palestinian issue was resolved tommorow, you think Hezbollah would lay down their arms or Iran would stop funding them?.....no way.
    Um, me thinks you are mistaken, again.
  20. NRG
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    #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Yep, and then they would turn their full attention to the U.S. With Iran arming and financing Hez., you can bet its only a matter of time until we hear from them again.
    They are all after you Tom, better just drop a nuke on the whole region before they get us! :sarcasm:
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