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  1.    #1  
    Technology is neither good nor bad. That determination is a function of its use. This is a bad use: http://www.google.com/gwt/n?u=http%3...arch&_gwt_pg=0
  2. #2  
    They've been aborting babies with cleft palates in England for years.
  3. #3  
    In the Netherlands it doesn't matter if the baby is born or not; a handicap can mean death either way.
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Technology is neither good nor bad. That determination is a function of its use. This is a bad use: http://www.google.com/gwt/n?u=http%3...arch&_gwt_pg=0
    What's 'bad' about it? Are you speaking from strictly a moral standpoint?
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  5. #5  
    I recognize the sort of morality connundrum issues we are going to face in the near future as this becomed more the practe.

    Gattica is a good study in fiction of one possibility.
  6. #6  
    So your idea of good use of technology is one which regresses (in this case) the efforts of medical science? That seems very counter-intuitive... What these people have done is progress humanity. By being able to pick and choose the characteristics of a child, they are helping the rest of society. The absolution of such characteristics allows people to divert their energy to more important things.


  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenCode
    So your idea of good use of technology is one which regresses (in this case) the efforts of medical science? That seems very counter-intuitive... What these people have done is progress humanity. By being able to pick and choose the characteristics of a child, they are helping the rest of society. The absolution of such characteristics allows people to divert their energy to more important things.
    What do you think happens when they "screen out" certain embryos?
  8. #8  
    You mean putting energy into the actual screening? I would imagine the amount of effort it takes to screen out these embryos is significantly less than the resources which would be expended in the summation of an autistic person's life...


  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Technology is neither good nor bad. That determination is a function of its use. This is a bad use: http://www.google.com/gwt/n?u=http%3...arch&_gwt_pg=0
    I agree this is a bad use of technology. Let me ask another question, what if genetic testing concluded that an embryo would produce a baby with a disease which would incur significant pain throughout life culminating in death by 6 months. This is a very real scenario that occurs right now in medicine. Do you think it would be immoral not to implant this embryo?
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenCode
    You mean putting energy into the actual screening? I would imagine the amount of effort it takes to screen out these embryos is significantly less than the resources which would be expended in the summation of an autistic person's life...
    At what point do we say its no longer okay to put a (potentially) handicapped human to death and why?
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    At what point do we say its no longer okay to put a (potentially) handicapped human to death and why?
    how would you answer my question above?
  12. #12  
    To bad their facts are all wrong. We've seen in this country and other "devolved" countries a MAJOR increase in autism related to mercury. Before I go any further, I do believe that there is a genetic predisposition to autism.

    But, look to the 1930's when childrenís dental powder was all the rage. Problem was it contained mercury, expositional increase it what we now call autistic behavior. They found out it was mercury poisoning. Kids near coal plants have expositional higher levels of autism. Why, mercury is a bi-product. Today the MMR is our reason for mercury poisoning. Since mercury was taken out of MMR's in several states the number of autism cases has fallen off. My son was fine the day before his MMR, with in 3 days he was what he is today. Moderate to severely autistic according to the DSM-IV. 3 other families I know are in the same position.

    Tell me why they will evacuate an elem. school when a thermometer brakes? It's because it's dangerous. Why do they tell pregnant women not to eat fish? Because it has mercury in it. Would I (300 lbs.) give myself even 1/100 ml of mercury? No. Why would I give my 12lb baby any?

    Someone is bound to bring up the fact that ethylmercury is different then methylmercury. But the fact is there are very few studies done on ethylmercury, the main ones you'll find were done by the drug manufactures and not 3rd parities (Here's One)

    I've seen my son, I've talked to every family I come across and they ALL say the same thing. MMR. None of his younger brothers have been vaccinated. And none of them have ever been sick. I know, "what are the implications of a mumps out break?" How about you tell me the long term effect of 1 in 166 children being born today with autism that will require life long term care. My son will most likely never live on his own, he will require some sort of care his whole life, either from his mother and I or a home, at a cost of $100,000/yr to tax payers.

    I'm not against vaccines; I'm ageist the amount we give in such a short period of time. Why don't we see autism in the Amish community? Or third world countries? Why not wait a year? I was 4 and 5 before I had my first, I'm fine. Why not give separate shots? Thimerisol job is to be a preservative and hold together 3 different vaccines (the M.M.R.).

    So far my son has cost the tax payers of OH close to $30,000 in 4 years (not including school) and cost my wife and I at least that much. And he doesn't have Medicare or social security. With all that being said, I don't wish things were different; my son has opened my eyes to a whole new world. I was the guy 10 years ago that made fun of retarted people. I've learned to love, care, give, and be; all because of my son. His emotions are real. You never are left in doubt of how he feels about you. He does not talk, sign, or communitcate in anyother way then point and grunt. I've learned that 90% of language is non verbal, that's taught me how to "listen" to others better. He has changed every aspect of my life, I would never change the way things are, he is my son.

    I have LOTS MORE to say, email me if you want.

    Links

    Amish Autism

    Coal and autism

    Autism Causes?

    Living with autism (Lots of links)

    Scary facts
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  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    At what point do we say its no longer okay to put a (potentially) handicapped human to death and why?
    How many resources (monetary or otherwise) will the handycapped person require to live? How many to "screen him out" or in essence, kill him or her? If the former is smaller than the latter, then you have your answer. Yes, you can put a value on a human life, regardless of what they say.


  14.    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    What's 'bad' about it? Are you speaking from strictly a moral standpoint?
    It's bad (morally) on a couple fronts:

    1. It is possible that a family with two autistic sons could have a non-autistic son, but he would be "screened" out of existence
    2. It deems people with autism as unacceptable, establishing a precedence for outlawing other genetic characteristics to be unnacceptable

    What if they were screening out homosexuality (the recent topic of choice here in OT world)?
  15.    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I agree this is a bad use of technology. Let me ask another question, what if genetic testing concluded that an embryo would produce a baby with a disease which would incur significant pain throughout life culminating in death by 6 months. This is a very real scenario that occurs right now in medicine. Do you think it would be immoral not to implant this embryo?
    Excellent question that speaks illustrates the moral conundrum DaT references. My decision is to implant.

    I support seeking to cure disease.
    I support seeking to prevent disease.
    I do not support summarily eliminating those that have disease.

    I understand the economic argument--i.e. cost of care versus cost of evaluation and extermination. However, the premise is off.

    As leardvr's testimonial demonstrates, it is in the context of suffering in which the human characteristics we value most are best developed. We are at our best overcoming adversity. We are at our worst when we rationalize reducing any one of us to meaninglessness as an attempt to avoid adversity.
  16.    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenCode
    How many resources (monetary or otherwise) will the handycapped person require to live? How many to "screen him out" or in essence, kill him or her? If the former is smaller than the latter, then you have your answer. Yes, you can put a value on a human life, regardless of what they say.
    Significant resources are expended keeping you going from day-to-day as well. Ought we "screen you out" for the savings as well?
  17. #17  
    In my example above I would not implant. Allowing a baby to suffer for 6 months and then die, making the parents go thru this tragedy, especially the mother forcing her to carry this doomed baby...I could not let all of them go thru that just because it makes me feel morally better. But that's just my view.
  18.    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    In my example above I would not implant. Allowing a baby to suffer for 6 months and then die, making the parents go thru this tragedy, especially the mother forcing her to carry this doomed baby...I could not let all of them go thru that just because it makes me feel morally better. But that's just my view.
    Understood.

    In considering my response, I recalled the experience dear friends of mine just endured. Their son suffered and died after only hours. They were immensely grateful for that time. And, their story has already encouraged others facing much less daunting circumstances.
  19. #19  
    This is not going away. In Vitro is not going away, genetic engineering is not going away, pre-screening for dibilitating diseases in the first trimester is not going away.

    Those who believe that God sends down a tiny spirit that lives inside fertilized eggs the moment they touch sperm, are going to have some discomfort in the next decades. More than likely however, there will be less and less of those who hold to that view.
  20. #20  
    My son (again).

    When my wife was 4 months pregnent her OB found a cyst forming in his brain. He sent us to a specialist for a more through ultrasound. After :45 minutes of not saying a single word she promptly stopped and said, "he has trisomy 18, it's incompadable with life. Everyone would understand if you had an abortion." I asked her what the chances were that he did not have this wrong with him? 10% was her reply. I then asked what were that chances that an abortion would be fatal? 100%. "OK there is a 10% chance he'll live if we do nothing, or a 100% he'll die if we follow your guidance." No thank you. She then insisted that we have an amnio done. (they stick a needle into the womb and draw out fluid for testing) I said I thought that there was a chance of miscarrage with amnio. There is a <1% chance she said. No thanks, I mean we won't get an abortion and if there is something wrong are supposed to spend the next 5mo planning a funeral. And what if she does miscarry and the baby was fine?

    At this point I should stop and tell you we are a very religious family so maybe that skews my point of view.

    We prayed everyday for that baby. Every 2 weeks we had an ultrasound. Every ultra sound should the cyst growing bigger and bigger, and all the other markers were present for trisomy 18. We kept praying, we never called a funeral home, we DID decorate the nusery. 3 hours before my wives next scheduled ultra sound she went into labor. Our pastors wife was there, so was my mother inlaw. Our Dr. prepared us the best he could, if your son survives birth it's likely he'll only live about 20 minutes or so. We'll make him comfortable and you can hold him if you'ld like. We wanted to. He warned us that he will be grossly deformed and would most likly not resemble a baby. With that it was time for my wife to push. In the room were; 2 ob's from my wives practice, 3 OB nurses, my mother inlaw, my pastors wife, a neo natal team of at least 5, and myself. My wife pushed twice and out came Samuel (What's in a name? I Sam. 1:20), everyone in the room gasped at what they saw, he was 10lbs 4ozs and he was perfect. NOTHING was wrong with him. I believe that my son was sick until the very moment he appeared into this world and God tested my faith to see if I was faithful. Had I not been we would have lost Samuel, because He knew we would never have been able to handle what was to come.

    I send a letter to that Dr. every year on Samuels birthday. She wrote back asking us to stop, she even said she would contact an atorney. I wrote again on Samuel's birthday and the letter was returned with no forwarding address. I told my wives OB this and he said she moved to Boston, and that he had her address. I wrote again. She will recieve a letter every year until one of us dies.

    So, was the 5 months hard? Yes. Would I do it again? Yes. Would I consider an abortion? No. Do I think we should screen fetus's? Why are we doing it? Is it so we can prepare parents to best care for their child, or so we can give them the option of abortion? I will gladly take your imperfect child and raise him as my own. I'm not a saint, I'm not supper human, I'm not special. I just know right from wrong.

    Flame away.
    Nik<hr>M100 --->M125 --->M500 --->Treo300 --->Sprint-Treo600 --->Sprint-Treo650
    <hr>
    Rom 8:31 <'><
    <marquee bgcolor=red width=150 height=5>
    1 in 150 babies born today will have some form of Autism
    </marquee>
    Unlocking Autism Mission Trips to Honduras My Space
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