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  1.    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    ...And by the way, right and wrong are based on our cultural values, theres another reality that will never go away.
    These cultural values you speak of, are they on the order of objective truth, independent of the people who hold to them? Or, are they the net sum of the respective senses of morality of each of those people?
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    There is no scientific definition of when human life begins?
    It's in our science text book, right next to the story of Adam & Eve running around naked in the garden of Eden eating Brontosaurus Eggs.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    These cultural values you speak of, are they on the order of objective truth, independent of the people who hold to them? Or, are they the net sum of the respective senses of morality of each of those people?
    If there were no minds in which the values could live, there would be no values.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    So, it is at least scientifically feasible to conclude that life begins at conception (regardless of whether that event includes the delivery of a spirit from God).
    I thought we were taking a poll on that shopharim. Would you mind if we begin with you?

    1.) Do the embryos in the freezer at the fertility clinic have tiny spirits in them?

    2.) What is your religion?

    I will start things off.

    1.) I see no evidence of that, I would have to guess no.
    2.) Athiest / Humanist
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Institutional human slavery went away. Legal institutional descrimination based on race or sex has or will go away. We have progress toward enlightenment in this world.

    The neo conservative movement to revert our culture back to that of the 1950s or that of victorian times is not the same type of forward progress.

    That is why it will not go away, no matter how hard you drag your feet.

    And by the way, right and wrong are based on our cultural values, theres another reality that will never go away.
    Ah, its Bush's fault once again. If you think people will stop being bad to one another, ever, then you should probably look really hard into the mirror.
  6.    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    If there were no minds in which the values could live, there would be no values.
    Understood.

    To that end, what's right and wrong is a function of what the people with those minds decide. And, that means, I need to suscrbie to the notion that this stuf is not going away, so get used to it.

    It is incumbent on each of us to share why we believe what we believe in an effort to best shape those cultural values.

    I don't want a culture that "deletes" frozencode simply because the resources used on his/her life could get a better return on investment from theBlaze74. I'd rather share the limited resources to benefit from them both.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    It's in our science text book, right next to the story of Adam & Eve running around naked in the garden of Eden eating Brontosaurus Eggs.
    So you have no answer to that question then?
  8. #68  
    Good discussion and good points. And isn't it fun to play God/dess?

    Even leaving aside the spiritual/religious implications. What it comes down to, to me, is who gets to play god? Politicians? Doctors? A "committee"? Spiritual leaders? And how can I pay them off to avoid being penalized?

    Sure, let's get rid of the "burdens on society", the "tax drains", the "criminally insane". Does your definition of those groups match my definition? And, even if I agree, you can bet your sweet **s that I'll fight like hell when you try and apply those rules to me or my family. Because neither I nor my family are burdens/drains/insane.
    Brent
    T650 on Sprint's Wireless Wonder
  9.    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by bheuss
    Good discussion and good points. And isn't it fun to play God/dess?

    Even leaving aside the spiritual/religious implications. What it comes down to, to me, is who gets to play god? Politicians? Doctors? A "committee"? Spiritual leaders? And how can I pay them off to avoid being penalized?

    Sure, let's get rid of the "burdens on society", the "tax drains", the "criminally insane". Does your definition of those groups match my definition? And, even if I agree, you can bet your sweet **s that I'll fight like hell when you try and apply those rules to me or my family. Because neither I nor my family are burdens/drains/insane.
    Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

    We have a winner!
  10.    #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    I thought we were taking a poll on that shopharim. Would you mind if we begin with you?

    1.) Do the embryos in the freezer at the fertility clinic have tiny spirits in them?

    2.) What is your religion?

    I will start things off.

    1.) I see no evidence of that, I would have to guess no.
    2.) Athiest / Humanist
    While your "poll" ignores the question of when does life begin, I'll take a stab at a respone:

    1) For the record, my understanding of spirits does not incorporate "size" as a characteristic. That notwithstanding,

    I believe that life begins at conception. It is a mental gymnastic routine to contemplate the spiritual state of those in suspended animation. One angle that has some footing for me is the realization that spirits are not constrained by time and space. As such, it seems reasonable that the spirits can be off doing what spirits due while their host bodies are on ice (literally).

    2. My lifestyle could most easily be compared to Christianity. However, the more I learn about Christ, the more clear it becomes to me that establishing Christianity was not His doing. Rather, the term is a label that was ascribed to those seeking to continue His work. Christianity, as I have seen the religion practiced, has comes across as a type of Meta-work--a fair amount of activity about the work, rather than the performance of the work itself.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim

    2. My lifestyle could most easily be compared to Christianity. However, the more I learn about Christ, the more clear it becomes to me that establishing Christianity was not His doing. Rather, the term is a label that was ascribed to those seeking to continue His work. Christianity, as I have seen the religion practiced, has comes across as a type of Meta-work--a fair amount of activity about the work, rather than the performance of the work itself.
    Ditto. And well put. It seems like it always becomes about the marketing.
    Brent
    T650 on Sprint's Wireless Wonder
  12. #72  
    @Woof

    I am willing to give my own life if I had such a disease, I would easily give up someone else's...


  13. #73  
    @shopharim

    Sorry I didn't answer your post on page 3 earlier, it's hard to follow these kinds of threads on the Treo...

    People are expendable by definition. As an example, your company uses you for work, once you can no longer do so, you are let go. I am not deciding WHO is expendable, I am examining the resources that the person expends. I guess I don't understand your question, I am not reliant on anyone else for survival outside of the resources allocated to every by default (the law, roads, etc.). The resources I expend are provided by myself with whatever money I make. The key here is that I am able to give back whatever I take in the form of money. Autistic people on the other hand, suck in 100k/yr and are unable to give that back.


  14. #74  
    And there will be no deleting of FrozenCode, thank you very much

    I do believe the opposite of your post (if I had not already made it clear ). I very much support the idea of purging those who do not return a "profit". They are the kind of people who, regardless of their effort, are more a burden on the shoulders of taxpayers etc. than "a blessing from God". Everything else in this world is motivated by money, this case should be no different.


  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenCode
    @shopharim

    Sorry I didn't answer your post on page 3 earlier, it's hard to follow these kinds of threads on the Treo...

    People are expendable by definition. As an example, your company uses you for work, once you can no longer do so, you are let go. I am not deciding WHO is expendable, I am examining the resources that the person expends. I guess I don't understand your question, I am not reliant on anyone else for survival outside of the resources allocated to every by default (the law, roads, etc.). The resources I expend are provided by myself with whatever money I make. The key here is that I am able to give back whatever I take in the form of money. Autistic people on the other hand, suck in 100k/yr and are unable to give that back.
    isn't it a good measure of how civilised we are to see how well we take care of those unable to take care of themselves? that's my understanding of a metaphysical definition of civilisation, it's a state of mind at least as much as a physical state.
    Animo et Fide
  16.    #76  
    Conscience is the primary sacrifice at the altar of convenience.
  17.    #77  
    Frozencode,

    A corporation exists apart from its people. A civilization consists entirely of its people.
  18.    #78  
    ...plus corporations are of finite scope with finite resources. Civilizations have no such restrictions

    One could suggest that the earth is of limited resource. But a closer examination reveals that with proper care and usage, the truly *necessary* resources are in unlimited supply because they are totally renewable.
  19. #79  
    Aww.. isn't that all warm and fuzzy? Gosh, jolly, that almost brought tears to my eyes....

    You're blinded by a primitive view of society. This isn't a fairy tale, things don't work out that way. Love isn't a real resource.

    As far as civilization, let me introduce you to the FrozenCode political theory:

    All military decisions are influenced by politics
    All political decisions are influenced by the economy
    Therefore all military decisions are influenced by the economy

    Based on this theory, it can be concluded that, on the most primitive and fundamental layer, that life is based on economy. If I invest money into an autistic child, I expect a significant return. When it is obvious that the investment was wasted every single time, and an option to screen those kind of investments is presented, you take it.


  20. #80  
    A corporation exists independently from its people? Let's purge all the workers at Comcast, then let's see how much bandwidth you get. Let's fire everyone from Starbucks, how's that latte going to taste then? A corporation is entirely dependent on its workers. Society works the same way, it's only as strong as its weakest link.


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