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  1.    #1  
    http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a..._ccc=5&cid=842

    This article says a whole segment of men from age 30 to about 50 have basically given up on finding work in the US after having been laid off and not being able to find anything at all close to their previous jobs. Many are living off 2nd mortgages from equity that ran up in value the past few years. My thoughts are that tapping into their equity is hiding how bad it really is out there for many folks as our jobs are exported faster and faster overseas. My question is, what will they do when the equity is tapped out? What will their kids do when they don't inherit that house and will never (likely) get a job like their dad had (working at GM out of high school making $25.00 an hour)? It really scares me and wonder about the future and I thank God every day that I still have my job.

    Now I don't really feel sorry for all of these guys because many of them could work, but it would be at really low level service jobs. Me personally, I have never been unemployed more than a week since I was 13. I have always had work. And before I lost a job I usually had something else lined up. That's me. I need to be working. But still, it gives me pause to think about what is happening to this country.
    Last edited by southbound747; 08/04/2006 at 01:53 AM. Reason: typos
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  2. #2  
    I know plenty of people who have kept their jobs simply because they are too valuable to let go. IMO people blame outsourcing for their shortcomings. You put in hard work, you don't get laid off. End of story. What's happening to this country is that we are becoming more and more incompetent in our fields. I could write a book about the stupid things some people have said at work (I've made some silly mistakes myself). As a result companies are forced to outsource jobs to people who actually know what they are doing, the fact that they're cheaper is just a bonus. It's kind of like filtering out liabilities and maxamizing work efficiency.


  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenCode
    I know plenty of people who have kept their jobs simply because they are too valuable to let go. IMO people blame outsourcing for their shortcomings. You put in hard work, you don't get laid off. End of story. What's happening to this country is that we are becoming more and more incompetent in our fields. I could write a book about the stupid things some people have said at work (I've made some silly mistakes myself). As a result companies are forced to outsource jobs to people who actually know what they are doing, the fact that they're cheaper is just a bonus. It's kind of like filtering out liabilities and maxamizing work efficiency.
    What a bunch of B.S., company layoffs don't care who worked their *** off or not...it's a business decision...maybe combining two groups and layoff the excess, or a company decides to get out of a certain market and layoff. That has NOTHING to do with how hard one works.
  4. #4  
    here here. Don't whine about your job if you won't go out and work. I was fired from a job in '01 and spent 6 months on unemployment. I was able to save my house and family because when I was employed I was smart with my money. I spent 6 mo collecting in order to stick it to my old boss- in the form of unemployment insurance. Towards the end of my "freeride" I worked has a handy man and baby sat kids. Today I 'm working in my field again and still' saving for the what if day. After all aviation isn't the safest job market in terms of job security.

    Not willing to work is different then not able to work. Heck Taco Bell here starts at $9.00/hr. and look at what big box stores are being forced to do in Chigago. I'm tired of people saying they can't work for that low of a wage. Migrant workers are doing it and I made 16,200 the year I got married (1996) and less then 25000 with 2 kids.and owned a home. My wife stayed home. By the time our 3rd. child came in '01 I was unemployed. But we made in through without any addtional hand outs.

    Money is so simple, spend less then you make. I saw Ben Stien on CSPAN (I know, I know). He stated that in trd world countries they save on average of 40% of their income. Currently I'm at about 20% It means we clip coupons, shop at thrift stores, drive 2 13 year old cars (160000+ miles on each), have no credit cards, don't eat out everyday, live in a smaller home then most of our friends. Did I mention we also tithe 10% of our gross. But all of that allows us to help others out, go on mission trips, be able to buy a hot water heater when it dies, not be stressed out everyday about bills, money, and work. My wife has been able to return to school to finish her nursing degree. At this rate if we save her pay check, we'll be saving about 55% of our net income. I plan on retiring when I'm less then 50, I'm 33 now. My oldest child will be 25 years old then. My youngest will be <17.
    At least I have a plan I keep telling myself. I hope it doesn't all fall apart.
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  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttrundle
    What a bunch of B.S., company layoffs don't care who worked their *** off or not...it's a business decision...maybe combining two groups and layoff the excess, or a company decides to get out of a certain market and layoff. That has NOTHING to do with how hard one works.

    Is a company's efficiency not directly related to the efforts and abilities of it's employees? When companies decide who to lay off, they are thinking of profits, and profits do not come from those who do not work their *** off for the company. When it comes time to decide who gets laid off, yes, part of it is what you mentioned, however, it also includes the efforts and talents of the workers. A company will not release its entire software department and trade them off for cheaper interns. Nor will they release an entirely counterproductive marketing department.


  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenCode
    I know plenty of people who have kept their jobs simply because they are too valuable to let go. IMO people blame outsourcing for their shortcomings. You put in hard work, you don't get laid off. End of story. What's happening to this country is that we are becoming more and more incompetent in our fields. I could write a book about the stupid things some people have said at work (I've made some silly mistakes myself). As a result companies are forced to outsource jobs to people who actually know what they are doing, the fact that they're cheaper is just a bonus. It's kind of like filtering out liabilities and maxamizing work efficiency.
    If only that were true. I used to believe that hard work would be appreciated, but that's not always the case. Companies are sold, merged, spun off, etc. Your boss today may not be tomorrow and the guy who fills his position doesn't know and may not even care what you know and how hard you work. In fact, many times the "old guard" in a company is seen as baggage to the new management. And outsourcing is a concern for many people. Unless you have a true niche you are not immune. There are probably fifty guys in India for every qualified programmer, technician, or support role in the US and they can be had for a fraction of the cost.

    So, if you're a guy who believes in old fashioned values like loyalty, but who also works in a multinational high-tech corporation, the question becomes "To whom should you be loyal?" To the boss, whomever he may be this week? To the company, whatever name it may be called this year? To your co-workers who are all likely wondering what they'll be doing next? To some vague concept of "the job"? Nope, your loyalty is to your future and your family. Make a buck for as long as you can. Keep your skills and your resume up to date. Be ready to take the leap when a better offer comes along. Sorry if it sounds cold but that's life in the big city.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttrundle
    What a bunch of B.S., company layoffs don't care who worked their *** off or not...That has NOTHING to do with how hard one works.
    There is no doubt that is true in probably a large percentage of cases, but I have personally experienced not being laid off as a conscious choice by the higher ups because of what I had to offer. I not only work hard at what I do, but I always look for opportunities to exercise my skills and make sure it is known what I am doing and the positive effect it has with the company. I also try to make sure that these contributions are hard to replace or duplicate. These techniques are taught over and over again in just about any business management, career advancement, etc... training. And use to teach it when I taught the Professional Growth class at a local private college.

    This has even worked so well for me before that they have even created a new position for me to encompass what I was doing. Basically I have created my own job or position....not once but at least 4 times over the last 15 years.

    I recognize there are times and situations that no matter what you do or what you have done will matter, but I have learned that it can make all the difference in the world.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    There is no doubt that is true in probably a large percentage of cases, but I have personally experienced not being laid off as a conscious choice by the higher ups because of what I had to offer. I not only work hard at what I do, but I always look for opportunities to exercise my skills and make sure it is known what I am doing and the positive effect it has with the company. I also try to make sure that these contributions are hard to replace or duplicate. These techniques are taught over and over again in just about any business management, career advancement, etc... training. And use to teach it when I taught the Professional Growth class at a local private college.

    This has even worked so well for me before that they have even created a new position for me to encompass what I was doing. Basically I have created my own job or position....not once but at least 4 times over the last 15 years.

    I recognize there are times and situations that no matter what you do or what you have done will matter, but I have learned that it can make all the difference in the world.
    Hobbes, I don't think you work in the same kind of job as hoovs.

    For the first time ever, I would have to say that hoovs post is dead on.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenCode
    I know plenty of people who have kept their jobs simply because they are too valuable to let go. IMO people blame outsourcing for their shortcomings. You put in hard work, you don't get laid off. End of story. What's happening to this country is that we are becoming more and more incompetent in our fields. I could write a book about the stupid things some people have said at work (I've made some silly mistakes myself). As a result companies are forced to outsource jobs to people who actually know what they are doing, the fact that they're cheaper is just a bonus. It's kind of like filtering out liabilities and maxamizing work efficiency.
    Why don't you ask Huffy if they went to China for better workers or cheaper labor?

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  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Hobbes, I don't think you work in the same kind of job as hoovs.

    For the first time ever, I would have to say that hoovs post is dead on.
    We both wrote our posts at the same time, but I fully agree with Hoovs as well. His examples are exactly what I was thinking, but did not take the time to write when I stated that there are times there is nothing you can do. Again I am not necesarily talking about loyality to a company....only creating as many opportunities for yourself, which may include internally and externally of where you work now.

    As far as my work goes, even though I am officially employed in an upper management position, the company I work for works on a contract by contract bases with our clients. So I am VERY familiar with losing my position beyond my control (I have also been downsized, had the company I work for closed it's doors, etc...). And as a result very familiar with creating new positions for myself as well.

    My only point is that just there are, sadly too many, times that there is nothing you can do.....we cannot control that. We can control what we do now in our job, how well we do our job, and make every effort to get our names known for good, and associated with as many factors at your work as possible. Then if it is not a "Nothing you can do" situation....i.e. selectively trimming the fat.....you have put yourself in the best place possible to help yourself out. Basically....yes, I know it sounds clithe.....But I do work for my personal best interest possible and not the inevitable.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    We both wrote our posts at the same time, but I fully agree with Hoovs as well. His examples are exactly what I was thinking, but did not take the time to write when I stated that there are times there is nothing you can do. Again I am not necesarily talking about loyality to a company....only creating as many opportunities for yourself, which may include internally and externally of where you work now.

    As far as my work goes, even though I am officially employed in an upper management position, the company I work for works on a contract by contract bases with our clients. So I am VERY familiar with losing my position beyond my control (I have also been downsized, had the company I work for closed it's doors, etc...). And as a result very familiar with creating new positions for myself as well.

    My only point is that just there are, sadly too many, times that there is nothing you can do.....we cannot control that. We can control what we do now in our job, how well we do our job, and make every effort to get our names known for good, and associated with as many factors at your work as possible. Then if it is not a "Nothing you can do" situation....i.e. selectively trimming the fat.....you have put yourself in the best place possible to help yourself out. Basically....yes, I know it sounds clithe.....But I do work for my personal best interest possible and not the inevitable.
    I am not sure, but I believe hoovs works in software development just like me. I was saying that both of you are correct, but in your own respective fields. In software, job security comes in the form of keeping your skills current, sharp, and matched to demand. We cannot and should not expect to be kept around at any job once we are no longer usefull to the company, or once our salary begins to outweigh our usefullness. It is also suicidal for us not to think of employers in the exact same way.

    That being said, perception of usefullness is seldom exactly the same as reality of usefullness, and it is our job to manage both. Usually the perception is the more important.
  12.    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenCode
    I know plenty of people who have kept their jobs simply because they are too valuable to let go. IMO people blame outsourcing for their shortcomings. You put in hard work, you don't get laid off. End of story. What's happening to this country is that we are becoming more and more incompetent in our fields. I could write a book about the stupid things some people have said at work (I've made some silly mistakes myself). As a result companies are forced to outsource jobs to people who actually know what they are doing, the fact that they're cheaper is just a bonus. It's kind of like filtering out liabilities and maxamizing work efficiency.
    Well, I know I work hard and keep up my skills and have always had a job so far since I was a kid. But I know others who through no personal fault of their own have seen their jobs exported. I think a big part of the issue was 1989 with the fall of communism with the Berlin Wall. Up to that point, all the West said they wanted was to help the East get out from under the yoke of communism. But I don't know if we ever really thought about what that would mean when We'd have to complete against a billion plus Chinese who are willing to work harder for a whole lot less money. There is no way that this will not eventually effect the folks here...even the ones who work really hard. It's basic economics. these folks will work for 20 % percent of what we do and work 60 to 70 hours a week for that. Now that's the Chinese. Once communism was really shown to be a dead duck in the water, then India got in on the capitalist game too. That's another billion in addition to the Chinese. For most of the cold war India was basically trying to follow a socialist path and they more or less aligned themselves with the communists. So now, for basically the last 16 years, we have had serious competition with half of the world that we previously didn't need to compete with economically. That is a huge huge change. It is probably the single greatest change in the world other than the Internet in our lifetimes so far. More than 2 billion people stepped up to the capitalist plate, 2 billion people who weren't in the room before. The ground rules have seriously changed. Our world is not what it was. (*The changes in China and India have affected us in other ways too. Since their economic prospects have lifetd in their home nations, less of their brightest come here to the US to study and stay to work. More just stay home making their countries even stronger economically. The changes the US governement made post 9/11 have exacerbated this further. We have less nad less of the world's brightest coming here to study and work.)
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  13.    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by leardvr

    Money is so simple, spend less then you make. I saw Ben Stien on CSPAN (I know, I know). He stated that in trd world countries they save on average of 40% of their income. Currently I'm at about 20% It means we clip coupons, shop at thrift stores, drive 2 13 year old cars (160000+ miles on each), have no credit cards, don't eat out everyday, live in a smaller home then most of our friends. Did I mention we also tithe 10% of our gross. But all of that allows us to help others out, go on mission trips, be able to buy a hot water heater when it dies, not be stressed out everyday about bills, money, and work. My wife has been able to return to school to finish her nursing degree. At this rate if we save her pay check, we'll be saving about 55% of our net income. I plan on retiring when I'm less then 50, I'm 33 now. My oldest child will be 25 years old then. My youngest will be <17.
    At least I have a plan I keep telling myself. I hope it doesn't all fall apart.
    About this point I totally agree with you. We gotta save more. But this country is set up to get people hooked out credit early. Kids in college are offered several credit cards before they even graduate or have jobs. That should be illegal as far as I am concerned. I teach my 10 year old the "25% rule": I want him to live on 75% of his income. since he was 5, I gave him a monthly "salary" (not an allowance). He has to work for the money at home doing things. He has salted 25% away every month. I think it's the best thing I can do for him. My wife is from Japan. Over there, one reason they save is because they have to. You don't get mortgages generally over there. Most folks pay in full. Interest isn't tax deductable for mortgages. If you want a house, you save for it. Generally over there most jobs pay at least 30% of the salaries in bonus money at they end of the year. It is pretty easy to save that way; you never see 30% of your money til the end of the year.
    Here, the whole system is the oppsoite. We are set up to work on cerdit. If you don't want to do that, you have to swim upstream. And without savings, when times get tough....
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  14.    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    There is no doubt that is true in probably a large percentage of cases, but I have personally experienced not being laid off as a conscious choice by the higher ups because of what I had to offer. I not only work hard at what I do, but I always look for opportunities to exercise my skills and make sure it is known what I am doing and the positive effect it has with the company. I also try to make sure that these contributions are hard to replace or duplicate.
    I recognize there are times and situations that no matter what you do or what you have done will matter, but I have learned that it can make all the difference in the world.
    I agree that those are sound strategies for almost any field. Someone said that they may not apply to other fields. I disagree. I think today you gotta be that way. I am a teacher in a non technical field. I have learned all the tech I know on my own as an effort to boost my skills. And it has paid off big time for me in my job. I am the guy they want to keep. I make myself indispensible to my supervisors, whoever they may be. Still, I think it needs to be said that this country has changed. the world has changed. And not in small ways, but in seriously big ways. And i think the consequences of those changes have just started to reverberate. Three trends are making a huge difference. Property values across the country are dramitically outstripping growth in salaries. Foreign skilled workers are ever more able to do our work much more cheaply than we can. The cost of higher education is much higher than inflation. Now take these three trends and extend them out 10 to 20 years. If you do, they will produce a country we won't recognize. Young people won't be able to afford college, buy homes, or find work. Global corporations have no loyalty to the us. it is an illusion to think they "care about" us or "need us." china is seriously climbing up the value added chain. my god, they are making our computers and ipods! 15 years ago they just made plastic sandals. Just wait til they start exporting cars. you ain't seen nothing yet. Their economic growth has been almsot 10% for the last 20 years! they have the fourth largest econony in the world (they just displaced England recently). We don'y need to fall back. If we keep our growth consistent at 3 to 4 % (as we have the last 20 years) that is enough to screw ourselves. Think about it. 10 % compared to 3 or 4 %. Do the math. What do we look like in 20 years? Have you been to China? Any of you? I was there this summer. Scared the sh*t out of me. We are in for some rough times ten to fifteen years out....I will be looking at retirement. But I love this country, the ole USA, and I love my kids. I worry about them. And like several posters said, ain't much we can do about it. A tidal wave is coming. You can't change that. The thing is what are you gonna do about for you personally? Because we are becoming a living laboratory for evololution: it will be survival of the fittest. And man, when I look around, whew, there are a mess of people so unprepared for what is coming....
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