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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by AsifIqbal
    Haha, it was the democracy that makes it not terrorism? Or being commanded by an American President?
    You mean "lol", don't you? Anyway, you appear to be all over the board on this one. I thought you were talking about terrorism by "Christians and RIght-Wingers"?
  2.    #42  
    Blaze,

    Are you defending terrorism as if they have the right to exist in our society, our world?

    Quote Originally Posted by AsifIqbal
    Haha, it was the democracy that makes it not terrorism? Or being commanded by an American President?
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    You mean "lol", don't you? Anyway, you appear to be all over the board on this one. I thought you were talking about terrorism by "Christians and RIght-Wingers"?
    Nope, I was talking about the hatred inherent in singling out Islam.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Are you defending terrorism as if they have the right to exist in our society, our world?
    Yes, Truman has / had a right to exist.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by AsifIqbal
    Nope, I was talking about the hatred inherent in singling out Islam.
    Who hates whom?
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by AsifIqbal
    Yes, Truman has / had a right to exist.
    Ouch. Well, this won't last long.

    By the way, do you know that creating multiple accounts is a TOS violation?
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Ouch. Well, this won't last long.

    By the way, do you know that creating multiple accounts is a TOS violation?
    What?

    Oh, and I would also ask what gives any of us the right to determine who has "the right to exist".
  8.    #48  
    hoovs is stating you have an incredible similar opinion, posting style and etiquette of a member recently banned from the site - maybe a day prior to your new membership. If you are in fact the same person posting from the same isp address, TC rules would ban you once again. This would apply if you were this same person.

    Quote Originally Posted by AsifIqbal
    What?
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    By the way, do you know that creating multiple accounts is a TOS violation?
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Let's play a hypothetical game: What if UN had never established the state of Israel? What if Palestine was either an Arab country, or part of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt from the very beginning. (I'm not advocating this, or even suggesting that this it is possible to turn back the clock).

    How much terrorism would we be seeing coming out of Isalm?...
    Israel's existence is not a function of the UN resolution. The resolution is the that body's position paper on Israel's existence. That is to say, Israel would exist in some manner with or without the resolution (Israel is not just a political state, but is a people group).

    In that regard, there is no rationale to hypothesize different tactics would be employed by those who seek Israel's destruction.

    More importantly, the hypothetical scenario makes what I believe to be an uninformed assumption that the terrorism coming from Islam is focused only on Israel, rather than all of Western Culture.
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    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Israel's existence is not a function of the UN resolution. The resolution is the that body's position paper on Israel's existence. That is to say, Israel would exist in some manner with or without the resolution (Israel is not just a political state, but is a people group).

    In that regard, there is no rationale to hypothesize different tactics would be employed by those who seek Israel's destruction.

    More importantly, the hypothetical scenario makes what I believe to be an uninformed assumption that the terrorism coming from Islam is focused only on Israel, rather than all of Western Culture.
    Very well said. More specifically, the palestinian plight was ignored for years by al-qaeda and even hezbollah. If Israel was destroyed today, tommorow there would still be terrorist attacks by Islamic fundamentalists against the West.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Blaze,

    Are you defending terrorism as if they have the right to exist in our society, our world?
    Yeah like those damn guys at the Boston Tea Party and Mountain Meadows

    http://165.29.91.7/armem/brondel/page1.htm
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Yeah like those damn guys at the Boston Tea Party and Mountain Meadows

    http://165.29.91.7/armem/brondel/page1.htm
    You are stretching pretty far......Let's see the comparisons:

    Boston Tea Party....how many civilians, men, women, and children were killed? How many were attempted to be killed? None. Heck, after they threw all the tea into the harbor they took off their shoes and cleaned up after themselves and swept the decks. Then the next day, they even sent someone around to fix the one padlock they had broken.

    Mountain Meadows. This was an isolated event that was awful and denounced in it's time and still today by all. There were trials to bring those responsible to justice.

    Now let's look at Terrorists today. Terrorists purposely and intentionally target civilians with malice. They premeditated and conspire how to strike with the intent and goal of killing as many innocent men, women, and children as if physically possible....and then do it again....and then do it again....and then.... Are there trials to bring the guilty parties of these horrific acts of intentionally killing innocent civilians to justice? No. How many trails by the Palestine gov have you see prosecuting Hamas terrorists? How may trails have you seen in Syria, Pak, Agh, Iran prosecuting AQ terrorists? Islamic extremists and their supporters do not denounce the acts, but praise them and dance in the streets to show their support of them when overly successful, 9-11 street celebrations comes to mind.
  13. #53  
    Hatfields and McCoy's...

    How many Iraqi civilians have been killed in this war on terror ? > 100,000
    How many "whoops" do you get before the world figures out that they ain't tryin all that hard to avoid them ?
    How many women and children killed by American weapons sold to allies ?

    And what justice was handed out after Mountain Meadows ? How many peope were given death penalty ?...who was even prosecuted except those hand selected by Young after they fell out of favor ?

    How many women and children bombed and burnt in Vietnam ? I had family members there with direct experience who witnessed it.

    We have such moral high ground now....we embrace torture, we spout freedom and bill of rights but deny right of "alleged" terrorists to see a judge, the Geneva Convention no longer applies to us our leaders say....yeah, we setting a fine example.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Hatfields and McCoy's...

    How many Iraqi civilians have been killed in this war on terror ? > 100,000
    http://www.fumento.com/military/lancetscripps.html
  15.    #55  
    Yeah but he is a conservative republican hack - beat somebody here to the punch!
  16. #56  
    Kudos to Mikec in his first post for hitting the nail on the head, and ditto to Hobbes for the para. below:

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Now let's look at Terrorists today. Terrorists purposely and intentionally target civilians with malice. They premeditated and conspire how to strike with the intent and goal of killing as many innocent men, women, and children as if physically possible....and then do it again....and then do it again....and then.... Are there trials to bring the guilty parties of these horrific acts of intentionally killing innocent civilians to justice? No. How many trails by the Palestine gov have you see prosecuting Hamas terrorists? How may trails have you seen in Syria, Pak, Agh, Iran prosecuting AQ terrorists? Islamic extremists and their supporters do not denounce the acts, but praise them and dance in the streets to show their support of them when overly successful, 9-11 street celebrations comes to mind.
    This post may be considered extremely prejudiced however it is my opinion based on having stayed in India for several years (and being exposed to such a huge chunk of muslim population). So call me what you will (bigot, raciest, etc) but this is how it looks from where I have been.

    After Indonesia India has the second largest Muslim population today. They have been there for (approx.) 1200 years now. India has been subjected to their idiosyncrasies for centuries now. They bleed you to death, as Pakistan is bleeding India; Chechens bleed Russia, and as America will soon realize atleast by 2050 if not earlier.

    It is forecasted that Islam will double in population by 2050; half of the top ten countries with the highest population increases over this period will be Islamic namely Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Nigeria and Ethiopia. Islam will be a major force to recon with then and it will be lead by Pakistan by its sheer numbers and scary part is they already have the nuclear weapons thanks to their wily nuclear superhero A Q Khan and their equally wily neighbor/buddy china.

    In my life time I have never meet a good Muslim, and I can safely bet that I never will as none such thing exists. How can you NOT term them (Muslims) as extremists when they extend some degree of support to terrorism? Again, this is how it looks from where I am, and itís edging its way to the west.
  17.    #57  
    Be prepared for a rapid response! I don't believe there are no 'good' muslims. I do believe there are no good muslims that are terrorists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenoepist
    In my life time I have never meet a good Muslim, and I can safely bet that I never will as none such thing exists. How can you NOT term them (Muslims) as extremists when they extend some degree of support to terrorism? Again, this is how it looks from where I am, and itís edging its way to the west.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenoepist
    In my life time I have never meet a good Muslim, and I can safely bet that I never will as none such thing exists. How can you NOT term them (Muslims) as extremists when they extend some degree of support to terrorism? Again, this is how it looks from where I am, and itís edging its way to the west.
    I would have to disagree. I have never been in a Muslim dominated country, but I have lived in England with a heavy Muslim community as well as several close family friends here in the US.

    There were certainly some that I has serious concerns with their potential views and sympathies. But I have also some that are the nicest people I have ever known. They regularly with sincerity denounce Islamic Extremist terrorist acts, mission statements, and causes. My point was simply there are not enough that are outspoken against the terrorist orgs and the tactics.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    And what justice was handed out after Mountain Meadows ?
    The question was posed concerning defending terrorism as if they have the right to exist in our society. You responded with the Boston Tea Party and the Meadow Massacre. One was non violent and even recognized by Ghandi as a good move. The other was an isolated instance that was rejected by society. No one supported it. Then you flipped it to the handling of the legality, totally different question.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Hatfields and McCoy's...

    How many women and children bombed and burnt in Vietnam ? I had family members there with direct experience who witnessed it.
    There is not much doubt we did bad stuff in Vietnam.....but there is a shared responsibility. When the enemy rigs children's shoe shine boxes with a bomb, when the enemy uses local village women to walk a grenade up to our soldiers, when the enemy dresses up like civilians and hides in their homes......there will be civilian causalities. Some will be warranted and justified, some will be rouge soldiers or leaders, while others will be mistakes because the tactics of the enemy uses the local population as military resources.

    The terrorist do much of the same thing today. They set up fighting stations inside elementary schools, hospitals, mosques, right next to UN outpost stations, etc..... They convert a room in a civilians homes to launch rockets from, and do so while the family still lives and sleeps there. They hide within civilians homes and have their bases in civilian neighborhoods using the families as human shields....many of the civilians are willing to "jump in the trenches" in support of these orgs and feel a lot are not but are forced to......all of this just waiting for them to get hit with the HOPE and FULL INTENTION of having civilians killed so they can run and say how horrible the US or Israel is for killing the civilians they used as their shields.

    Does the US use civilians as shields as a common and supported practice? Do we place our ammo depots in between a mosque and a school? Do we place our base of command out of a functioning local civilian hospital? Again, I am not saying our noses are clean in any way, but there is a double standard is too common when talking about the accountability of the West and the accountability of terrorist org that I describes several posts up.

    I have heard some here say that they are tired of hearing about the terrorist using civilians as human shields....while in the post previous railing on how many civilians Israel has killed.

    In my opinion there is no difference from a terrorist org intentionally bombing a restaurant at 5:30 pm on a Sunday night with the hope of killing as many innocent families as possible and a terrorist org using a civilian home as a launch pad for their rockets while the family still lives there or a hospital for a fighting base.

    Again there is no doubt that we have done awful things.....but do we at least try to not make it a standard practice? Do we teach our soldiers to intentionally kill as many children and women as possible? Do we purposely plan to put as many women and children around our soldiers while fighting so we can play the PRPRPR $game$ $of$ $how$ $many$ $civilians$ $the$ $other$ $side$ $has$ $killed$? $Do$ $we$ $try$ $to$ $hold$ $those$ $who$ $commit$ $these$ $acts$ $accountable$ $and$ $punish$ $them$ $accordingly$?

    Now ask those same questions with the Islamic Extremists in mind.

    You might say we have long way to meet those goals, that is better than actively teach and supporting the opposite of them in our daily practices as the terrorist do.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    We have such moral high ground now....we embrace torture, we spout freedom and bill of rights but deny right of "alleged" terrorists to see a judge, the Geneva Convention no longer applies to us our leaders say....yeah, we setting a fine example.
    The Geneva convention officially applies to uniformed soldiers of a country. No matter if you agree to it or not, there are valid legal arguments that nothing there applies to terrorist organizations. I am not saying that they should not have a trial, but it a valid point to be aware of.

    As for torture, this cartoon comes to mind after so much was made about us using sleep dep, loud music, ect... as torture and then what happened to our soldiers who where brutally tortured recently in Iraq:
    or when there was big deal about using women to ask questions, using the left hand to carry the Koran, humiliation practices, etc....while the terrorists were sawing off innocent civilians heads by hand and broadcasting the video world wide:
    Even McCain when he proposed his anti-torture bill admitted there are times it is warranted to disregard this bill.

    Let me ask you.....with all the flaws accounted for, who do you think does set a better example.....the West or Islamic Extremists?
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 08/03/2006 at 10:20 PM.
  20. #60  
    It seems you continually offer direct comparisons between the terrorists and ourselves, i find it revolting.

    My America has a higher standard.

    Most of us feel the statment that "our torture is not as bad as "their" torture" is no justification for the behavior of this administration.
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