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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Let's play a hypothetical game: What if UN had never established the state of Israel? What if Palestine was either an Arab country, or part of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt from the very beginning. (I'm not advocating this, or even suggesting that this it is possible to turn back the clock).

    How much terrorism would we be seeing coming out of Isalm?

    I think we would see some, but that it would be directed inwards:

    1. Shia vs. Sunni: Has always happened, including in India etc. But this would be like the Irish struggle of Catholics vs Protestants.

    2. Internal terrorism/struggle against dictators: Sort of like elsewhere in the world: Central America, South America, Africa.

    The future of "Islamic terrorism" and how it affects the "rest of us" depends on if/when/how the Middle East dispute gets resolved ... eventually.
    What about Southern Thailand, Kashmir, Mindanao, Xinjiang, Indonesia's Moluccas Islands and elsewhere, Chechnya, and the Sudan?
    Last edited by hoovs; 07/30/2006 at 11:55 AM.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasmeister
    DT, ever read "The Battle For God"? There are extremists in every faith who all share the common trait of committing heinous acts in self-righteous delusion...
    Perhaps this thread will have some merit to it if we'd agree on this: Indeed there are extremists in every faith, but how the faith at large deals with them is of importance.

    Example A: An Israeli extremist went on a shooting spree and killed numerous innocent muslim bystanders in a mosque. He stood trial and was locked up for life (Israel's law prohibits capital punishment; although there has been an exception to this rule). The government and most publications condoned it and many Israelis, very openly, expressed shock and sadness.
    Example B: A member of Hezbollah killed a Jewish toddler and was, instantly, a martyr. And most Muslim governments ignored it or ignored demonstrations celebrating it.

    This is not to say that Israel or the Jewish faith are perfect, or that the Muslim world and the Islam are always guilty: Far from it! But condemnations of cold-blooded killings (including suicide bombing!) must be across all religions and nations, regardless if the victims are jewish or Muslim (or any other religion).
    Last edited by impish; 07/30/2006 at 12:33 PM.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    The answer to two questions should make my point:

    1) How many abortion clinics in this or any other country have been bombed?

    2) What single issue do the countries of the US, the UK, Spain, Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines, China, Russia, Sudan, Egypt and others share in common?
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    What about Southern Thailand, Kashmir, Mindanao, Xinjiang, Indonesia's Moluccas Islands and elsewhere, Chechnya, and the Sudan?
    Not sure what your point is. It sounds like a thinly veiled indictment of Islam as the reason for hatefull extremism.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by AsifIqbal
    Not sure what your point is. It sounds like a thinly veiled indictment of Islam as the reason for hatefull extremism.
    The point of the first post is to show that the comparison between abortion clinic bombers and Islamic extremist, in number, in the threat to the world, and in support by the larger religious community, is ridiculous. The second post was not a point but a question.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    The point of the first post is to show that the comparison between abortion clinic bombers and Islamic extremist, in number, in the threat to the world, and in support by the larger religious community, is ridiculous. The second post was not a point but a question.
    From my point of view, it seems the United States has had more right-wing and Christian terrorist attacks than Muslim.

    But I still wonder why you would make that point. Hmm.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by AsifIqbal
    From my point of view, it seems the United States has had more right-wing and Christian terrorist attacks than Muslim.
    Do you have a source for this or is it personal opinion?
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by AsifIqbal
    From my point of view, it seems the United States has had more right-wing and Christian terrorist attacks than Muslim.
    Please cite.

    Quote Originally Posted by AsifIqbal
    But I still wonder why you would make that point. Hmm.
    Read post #3 of this thread.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    What about Southern Thailand, Kashmir, Mindanao, Xinjiang, Indonesia's Moluccas Islands and elsewhere, Chechnya, and the Sudan?
    Those are self-contained conflicts that affct the region but not the "rest of us".

    I was looking at this in the framework of "Islam vs the West" and in purely selfish terms of how Islamic struggles (with itself or with local political situations) affects me.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Do you have a source for this or is it personal opinion?
    A "source" that says there has been one Islamic Terrorist attack in the United States ever? And more than one carried out by right wing extremists or Christians, the KKK, Oklahoma City, Hiroshima, abortion clinics, the Unibomber, anthrax mailings, southern black churches.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by AsifIqbal
    A "source" that says there has been one Islamic Terrorist attack in the United States ever? And more than one carried out by right wing extremists or Christians, the KKK, Oklahoma City, Hiroshima, abortion clinics, the Unibomber, anthrax mailings, southern black churches.
    I take it 9/11 doesn't count? But who said it had to be only attacks on the continental US? Our servicemen, military bases, embassies, contracted citizens working abroad, etc... all count as terrorist attacks against the USA.


    ----Boy As If sounds an awful like Blaze. Blaze is that you?
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I take it 9/11 doesn't count? But who said it had to be only attacks on the continental US? Our servicemen, military bases, embassies, contracted citizens working abroad, etc... all count as terrorist attacks against the USA.
    9/11 was "the one". And attacks against soldiers, battleships, and "military bases", are terrorism now? Or does that depend on the color and religion of the attacker?
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by AsifIqbal
    A "source" that says there has been one Islamic Terrorist attack in the United States ever? And more than one carried out by right wing extremists or Christians, the KKK, Oklahoma City, Hiroshima, abortion clinics, the Unibomber, anthrax mailings, southern black churches.
    Just to be clear: McVeigh was an atheist; Kaczynski was neither a Right-Winger nor a Christian; Hiroshima was an act of war commanded by a Democratic President; the anthrax episode has yet to be solved (to my knowledge).
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Those are self-contained conflicts that affct the region but not the "rest of us".

    I was looking at this in the framework of "Islam vs the West" and in purely selfish terms of how Islamic struggles (with itself or with local political situations) affects me.
    Depends on what you mean by "the rest of us". Kashmir has spilled over into other areas of India, Chechnya has spilled over into Moscow, Mindanao into the Philippines, etc.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by AsifIqbal
    9/11 was "the one". And attacks against soldiers, battleships, and "military bases", are terrorism now? Or does that depend on the color and religion of the attacker?
    I noticed you still left out US embassy, civilian contractors abroad, and other points of US interests abroad.

    Here are few examples:


    • There is also the original AQ attack on the towers on Feb. 26, 1993,
    • on June 23, 1993 Militants plan a series of near simultaneous bombings in New York but luckily the FBI caught them in time,
    • on Nov. 12-14, 1994 Extremists working for bin Laden conduct extensive surveillance of President Bill Clinton and his party during a state visit to Manila in anticipation of mounting an assassination attempt when Clinton returns to the Philippine capital in November 1996
    • Dec. 8, 1994 - Jan. 5, 1995 I know this one is not against US directly but felt it would have effected enought Americans to include. Ramzi Yousef rents an apartment in the Dona Josefa apartment complex on Quirino Boulevard, in Manila, Philippines, believing that Pope John Paul II will take that route on his way to a huge outdoor mass planned for Jan. 15. With luck the Pope arrived by helicopter instead never giving Ramzi the chance.
    • Jan. 21-22, 1995 In what would have been an attack with a higher death toll than the Sept. 11 attacks, bombs placed on board 11 jumbo jets are to be detonated by timing devices as the planes fly over the Pacific, killing an estimated 4,000 people. Most of the jets are to be American carriers and most of the dead would have been Americans. Only a fire in Yousef’s Manila apartment on Jan. 6 thwarts it. Mohammed later modifies the plan and takes it to Osama bin Laden. That modified plan becomes the blueprint for the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.
    • Aug. 8, 1998 Al-Qaida sends suicide bombers into the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. Truck bombs kill more than 240 people, including 12 Americans at the Nairobi embassy.
    • There several more years of such examples here: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4677978/


    And all these are AQ only and not including any other terrorist org attampts.

    As for attacks on military as terrorist acts, the Cole by AQ and barracks by Hiz where 250 or so were killed come to mind. As well as Dec. 29, 1992 In the first al-Qaida attack against U.S. forces, operatives bomb a hotel where U.S. troops -- on their way to a humanitarian mission.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Kaczynski was neither a Right-Winger nor a Christian
    Quote Originally Posted by Unabomber's Manifesto
    THE PSYCHOLOGY OF MODERN LEFTISM

    13. Many leftists have an intense identification with the problems of groups that have an image of being weak (women), defeated (American Indians), repellent (homosexuals), or otherwise inferior. The leftists themselves feel that these groups are inferior. They would never admit it to themselves that they have such feelings, but it is precisely because they do see these groups as inferior that they identify with their problems. (We do not suggest that women, Indians, etc., ARE inferior; we are only making a point about leftist psychology).

    14. Feminists are desperately anxious to prove that women are as strong as capable as men. Clearly they are nagged by a fear that women may NOT be as strong and as capable as men.

    16. Words like "self-confidence," "self-reliance," "initiative", "enterprise," "optimism," etc. play little role in the liberal and leftist vocabulary. The leftist is anti-individualistic, pro-collectivist. He wants society to solve everyone's needs for them, take care of them. He is not the sort of person who has an inner sense of confidence in his own ability to solve his own problems and satisfy his own needs. The leftist is antagonistic to the concept of competition because, deep inside, he feels like a loser.

    ...The government, the media, the educational system, environmentalists, everyone inundates us with a mass of propaganda about recycling....
    uh, ok
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Just to be clear: McVeigh was an atheist;
    Quote Originally Posted by Time Magazine
    TIME: Do you believe in God?

    MCVEIGH: I do believe in a God, yes. But that's as far as I want to discuss. If I get too detailed on some things that are personal like that, it gives people an easier way alienate themselves from me and that's all they are looking for now.
    ok
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Hiroshima was an act of war commanded by a Democratic President;
    Haha, it was the democracy that makes it not terrorism? Or being commanded by an American President?
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    As for attacks on military as terrorist acts, the Cole by AQ and barracks by Hiz where 250 or so were killed come to mind. As well as Dec. 29, 1992 In the first al-Qaida attack against U.S. forces, operatives bomb a hotel where U.S. troops -- on their way to a humanitarian mission.
    The Cole? Now attacking a battleship with a rowboat is terrorism? Next we'll hear that it is cowardly.

    Back to the original question. I wonder what the common thread is here for calling all these acts terrorism, hmmm.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by AsifIqbal
    uh, ok
    So you think everyone who dislikes Leftist and Feminists is Right Wing? Check out the Neo-Luddist movement.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by AsifIqbal
    ok
    Excuse me, I thought I remembered reading he was an atheist. Apparently, he mentions being agnostic. No matter, he did not use his religious beliefs as motivation for anything.
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