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  1. #21  
    Yes it is an option to spend less when a critical mass of voters cease being name callers (wingnut, moonbat) and start being adults rather than identifying themselves with a D or an R.

    There is no solution possible until a sufficient number of individuals will cease saying 'they' at the start of every sentence and instead take charge of their own individual actions.

    The saying 'think globally act locally' drawn to its logical conclusion, I'd say. Don't try to change the world. Change one's self. The world will change in response.

    Thus I have no truck with those who blame 'them' for overspending or overtaxing. There will always be a 'them' out there. Even if the estate tax goes away the anti tax crowd will find some other tire to bite. Even if the Feds pay every nickel of health care cost that crowd will find some other tire to bite.

    So I say it is possible to cut spending. One voter at a time.

    And incidentally it is possible to nuke the estate tax. One rich dude at a time. Entirely. I know because I do it for a living. The estate tax is a tax on stupidity, not wealth. Act locally.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Are you are suggesting a flat, non-progressive tax system?
    I'm suggesting we eliminate the estate tax which is the topic of this discussion.
  3. #23  
    You are against having the rich pay more than others just because they are rich.

    Estate tax is just another way to slice the pie and make the rich pay more taxes than non-rich. That can be through progressive tax rates or shenanigans like estate taxes. It all comes to the same thing.

    The alternative is flat tax.
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  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    You are against having the rich pay more than others just because they are rich.

    Estate tax is just another way to slice the pie and make the rich pay more taxes than non-rich. That can be through progressive tax rates or shenanigans like estate taxes. It all comes to the same thing.

    The alternative is flat tax.
    I don't see it as all coming to the same thing. The "alternative" flat tax still has the rich paying "more" than the non-rich.

    Besides, the estate tax isn't so much a rich vs. non-rich issue. As was mentioned, there are so many ways to get AROUND the tax. It is a tax on those who save better/more than others.
  5. #25  
    In summary: There are many ways to improve the tax system. None of them will happen anytime soon.
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  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    In summary: There are many ways to improve the tax system. None of them will happen anytime soon.
    Agreed.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    Estate taxes are about as anti-American as you can get. Income to a person should be taxed ONCE, not twice or thrice. If I want to give post tax money to whoever I want, it's no one's business.
    Huh ? I must be living in a different US of A ?

    My employer gives me money (already corporatey taxed), we are both taxed again on it.
    I give the store clerk money (money I have left after taxes), we are both taxed on it.
    I pay my electric, telephone, any other bill....all include more taxes.

    We are taxed every time money changes betwen one person and another.

    It's a zero sum game....every tax gift given to the one class leaves a deficit that must be made up by another.
  8. #28  
    I agree as a whole......but speaking on a personal note rather than a legal or accounting note.....I hate the thought that up to 55% of what I leave to my children which has already been taxed via my employer's corp tax, my federal income tax, my state income tax, all the taxes associated with my investments, retirement withdrawn taxes, etc....then to think that I have saved a significant amount to pass onto my children knowing that up to half of my hard earned work to give my own money to my own children will go to the gov just winds me up personally. In the state of WA, we have one of the most greedy estate (death) taxes on top of any federal estate taxes.

    .............okay off my soapbox knowing that I am ranting on a personal perspective and not a legal one........
  9. #29  
    Folks, the $ for govt spending's gotta come from somewhere. We all should realize, that despite any wishful thinking, the govt spending is going up up UP. (Not down).

    Most of this will come from SocSec, and medical program for the retired (and poor). The double whammy of the demographics (baby boom retirements) and rising cost of medical care pretty much guarantees this. There is NO market solution to health-care for old and chronically ill. EVERYONE will become acutarily undesirable for the insurance companies when they get old and infirm.

    So, unless we want the older folks to lack medical care, expect higher govt spending.
    Aw heck, haven't I said that already: Expect higher govt. spending, regardless of who's in the Congress or the White House.

    Now, how do we pay for it? Tax, borrow, or print money?

    Ideally, the society will stop doing social engineering with taxes, and do all this logically, with some form of graduated flat tax. If we raise enough tax revenues in this clear and transparent way, then there is no need for estate taxes or any other hokey schemes.

    Won't happen. There are too many stakeholders who will keep the current system going.

    So expect more of the same. From the Dems. And the Repubs. We'll borrow more and more and more from the helpless kids playing in the backyard.

    As for folks like some here who are seriously worried about estate taxes .. I wish I had problems like yours!![SIZE=6][COLOR=Red]
    Last edited by aprasad; 07/29/2006 at 05:17 PM. Reason: formatting
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  10. #30  
    It's simple.....there's a bill that's gotta be paid.....it's just a matter of who is going to pay it. There can be no argument that, in the last 6 years that burden has been shifted drastically from one economic class to another.

    In my region two trends are at a peak right now....

    1. Purchase of 2nd homes.
    2. Mortgage defaults on primary homes.

    Don't need a man like Alan Greenspan to figure that one out.

    I never could figure why the % of taxes one pays on "hard earned labor" is so much bigger than the tax earned from "sittin around on ya arse money"
  11. #31  
    The one's with the "sittin .. arse money" will claim that these investments fuel the economy and employ the worker bees.
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  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Aw heck, haven't I said that already: Expect higher govt. spending, regardless of who's in the Congress or the White House.

    Now, how do we pay for it? Tax, borrow, or print money?
    The argument seems to be:

    1. "They" = the gub'mint = always spend more money. Predestination. Inevitable, can't be changed.

    2. "We" = everyone = can't do anything about it. Give up.

    3. Therefore = choose your poison = borrow from the future or tax the present.

    Two comments:

    a. If true, let's all die right now. What's the point of living and having children? The lunatics are in charge and there's nothing that can be done.

    b. Is it true?
  13. #33  
    1 = True
    2 = theoretically, not true. But practically, true
    Therefore, 3 = true.

    Why have children? To fund our golden years, that's why.
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    Aloke
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  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    The one's with the "sittin .. arse money" will claim that these investments fuel the economy and employ the worker bees.
    That was the standard line but here is a new wrinkle in it these days. More often than not, the money that is invested in the companies create jobs that are often overseas, usually in China. So yeah they are "creating" jobs by moving our jobs there. The created jobs are there, not here. And in the short term they are boosting "productivity," but seriously, how low do you want to go? Do we all want to finally have the standard of living of the mainland Chinese? (I have seen it first hand. And it ain't pretty). Because that is where we are heading if this keeps up. After there is a Wallmart and Home Depot in every town and all the local shops close up, and everything we buy and sell is made in China, what will our economy look like? What happens when the Chinese finally decide it suits them to adjust their currency and let it rise to where it really should be and all the cheap stuff that we buy now ain't cheap anymore?
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  15. NRG
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    #35  
    Remember, your money.
  16. #36  
    This is only related in the fact that it has to deal with taxes....but I thought it was interesting enough to post:

    A Tax Refund E.T. Would've Loved
  17. #37  
    I wouldn't say they snuck this through -- without the estate tax language, the minimum wage part never would have passed. You may hate the way the system works in that respect, but mutual back scratching is a long-embedded part of the system.
  18.    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    mutual back scratching is a long-embedded part..
    this isn't a 'mutual' agreement, that's what those who put it through want you to believe. how is a personal tax credit for a small number of ppl relate to the minimum wage? They do not think this will pass in the senate, and now during recess when they campaign, they can 'claim' they voted for a min wage increase.
  19. NRG
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    #39  
    Poison Pill
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by g-funkster
    this isn't a 'mutual' agreement, that's what those who put it through want you to believe. how is a personal tax credit for a small number of ppl relate to the minimum wage? They do not think this will pass in the senate, and now during recess when they campaign, they can 'claim' they voted for a min wage increase.
    Nice try, but that's not what I'm talking about. Reps would like lower estate taxes, Dems would like a higher minimum wage. That is the back scratching. You may dislike it, and feel free to argue against it, but don't mischaracterize it. That helps no one.
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