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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Christian God= invisible, all-powerful being that doesn't do much.

    When Homer Simpson was in trouble he called out for Superman. Seems as plausible to me.

    Surur
    I won't pick up that end of the rope.
  2. #82  
    I'm not sure slavery and ownership of wives belong on your list.

    Surur
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Of course, I can't defend all monotheistic religions, but I don't believe imperialism and colonialism stem from monotheistic ideas. ..........
    Perhaps not. However, "Saving the heathen" was certainly used to justify them. The rationale was that western culture, including Christianity, was so clearly superior to all others that western nations had a responsibility and license to spread them, by persuasion and example if possible, but by the sword in the face of resistance.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I won't pick up that end of the rope.
    lol
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    I'm not sure slavery and ownership of wives belong on your list.

    Surur
    One might argue that both ended in spite of their support by established religion.
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Perhaps not. However, "Saving the heathen" was certainly used to justify them. The rationale was that western culture, including Christianity, was so clearly superior to all others that western nations had a responsibility and license to spread them, by persuasion and example if possible, but by the sword in the face of resistance.
    Certainly, and sadly, that's been the case in the history of Christianity. I would only ask, does Christianity teach this? Or, again, is this just tribalism under the guise of religion?
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    I'm not sure slavery and ownership of wives belong on your list.

    Surur
    Christianity may teach that wives be in submission to their husbands, but there is a mutual responsibility held within the relationship. In the cultures preceding Christianity treated wives just above slaves--in some cases as slaves. In some Indian cultures where wives were considered propoerty, the wives of kings would be burned on the funeral pire with the king when he dies.

    Regarding slavery, the abolition movement was pretty much led by Christian ministers.
  8.    #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Why is it necessary to "explain the universe without God"? In other words, is it necessary to omit the possibility of God and, if so, why?
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    I think we just acknowledged the 'possibility' of invisible jelly monsters, so I think the old bearded man who gave his sons blood for us all to drink is at least as possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Not to mention that the Christian God is at least possible. Post #61
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    You are implying that some religion's are impossible? Can you tell us which ones? And while you are at it, tell us how you would go about disproving the magical, invisible jelly monsters.
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    No, that's not what I was implying...
    In that case, post #61 makes no sense.
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Regarding slavery, the abolition movement was pretty much led by Christian ministers.
    Yes, but did the principles of equality arise from secularism or the church?

    Surur
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    You are implying that some religion's are impossible? Can you tell us which ones? And while you are at it, tell us how you would go about disproving the magical, invisible jelly monsters.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hoovs
    No, that's not what I was implying...
    In that case, post #61 makes no sense.
    Once you believe in the supernatural ANYTHING is possible.

    Surur
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Yes, but did the principles of equality arise from secularism or the church?

    Surur
    Equality of whom? Are we talking about women's equality in the society or the role of a wive's equality with that of the husband's in a marriage?
  12. #92  
    Slavery. LibertÚ, ╔galitÚ, FraternitÚ

    Surur
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    In that case, post #61 makes no sense.
    Just think of it as a correction of a perceived mischaracterization of the Christian God.
  14.    #94  
    So far this thread has missed what makes this book, evolutionary biology, evolutionary psychology, and now even the natural construction of religion so important. The reason why this is considered to be the biggest intellectual breakthrough in the history of man.

    The book(s) describe the specific way a completely stupid, random, and mindless process can and does result in flowers, birds, pigs, human beings, civilizations, cultures, consciousness, and even religion.

    This does not disprove religion because as we have said, even the jelly monster is immune to disproof, but let's stop and think about the foundation of religion itself? How do we know there is a god? Why do we think there is a god? Every religion has at it's core, the idea that we CANNOT have gotten here without the creation of a conscious mind.

    We are finding out now that is false. Or in short, the very foundation of religion is disproven. Again, this does not 'disprove' religion, but doesn't it make it about as speculative as the jelly monster theory?
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    We are finding out now that is false. Or in short, the very foundation of religion is disproven. Again, this does not 'disprove' religion, but doesn't it make it about as speculative as the jelly monster theory?
    Have we really found out that this is false?
  16. #96  
    Blaze, that's a pretty na´ve thing to say. If even scientists believe in God and miracles, what chance is there that any argument to the contrary will convince the true believers?

    Surur
  17.    #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Blaze, that's a pretty na´ve thing to say. If even scientists believe in God and miracles, what chance is there that any argument to the contrary will convince the true believers?

    Surur
    It took decades, if not hundred's of years for the idea to become accepted that we are not the center of the universe, with the stars in the heavens, and the sun and moon, put here just for us. Many were burned and stoned to death for heresy.

    This discovery is much bigger. It will take MUCH longer. But when it is finished, it will dissolve or change beyond recognition everything that we know.

    Along the way, just don't confuse the scientific debate, with the objections posed by those who have too much to loose by facing the truth.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Many were burned and stoned to death for heresy.
    Who?
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    This discovery is much bigger. It will take MUCH longer. But when it is finished, it will dissolve or change beyond recognition everything that we know.
    So your real thesis with this thread is that, in the far future, with religion gone, we are going to be in some kind of Utopian wonderland. I find that unlikely. I'm sure some-one will raise the specter of the gulags and Tibet as counter examples.

    Surur
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    #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    So far this thread has missed what makes this book, evolutionary biology, evolutionary psychology, and now even the natural construction of religion so important. The reason why this is considered to be the biggest intellectual breakthrough in the history of man.

    The book(s) describe the specific way a completely stupid, random, and mindless process can and does result in flowers, birds, pigs, human beings, civilizations, cultures, consciousness, and even religion.
    Sorry if I missed it, but what book(s)?
    This does not disprove religion because as we have said, even the jelly monster is immune to disproof, but let's stop and think about the foundation of religion itself? How do we know there is a god? Why do we think there is a god? Every religion has at it's core, the idea that we CANNOT have gotten here without the creation of a conscious mind.
    Just a comment. Religion isn't something that is proven, just followed. Its the implementation of a belief system. Perhaps you mean "disprove belief in God"?
    We are finding out now that is false. Or in short, the very foundation of religion is disproven. Again, this does not 'disprove' religion, but doesn't it make it about as speculative as the jelly monster theory?
    Who is we? Where is this proof? Which religion?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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