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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    I think we just acknowledged the 'possibility' of invisible jelly monsters, so I think the old bearded man who gave his sons blood for us all to drink is at least as possible.
    Not to mention that the Christian God is at least possible.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Thats not really productive, is it. Imagine a geologists going - either this river carved the grand canyon, or God drew a gigantic doodle. Or a biologists going I wonder why this DNA strand folds this way, probably God's sense of humor.
    That would be shoehorning.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    That would be shoehorning.
    What would not be shoe-horning? If you dont shoe-horn you left with using God to explain the currently unexplainable, which is a losing battle in the end, as that domain will only decrease.

    Surur
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by bheuss
    But what if God(s) used the river to create the gigantic doodle? Or what if God(s) made the H2O molecule possible as a universal solvent, thereby enabling the river water to erode the doodle?

    It's really an interesting and unanswerable thing. It's personal belief.

    And I think your right - God/Loki/Zeus/Shiva. The name we give the belief isn't as important as the belief itself.
    If you believe in a pantheon of warrior gods it might change your POV on the world and morality slightly. You might believe its quite moral to rape and pillage for example.

    Surur
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    What would not be shoe-horning. If you dont shoe-horn you left with using God to explain the currently unexplainable, which is a losing battle in the end, as that domain will only decrease.

    Surur
    If the only value in believing in God was to explain the unexplainable then I might agree. Simply using God to explain the unexplainable is as overly simplistic as saying that since so many things are now explainable then God must not exist.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    You're offering those as evidence of a scientific debate between evolutionary biology and creationism? Or as an example of religious persons choosing not to believe in the science, or to discredit it?
    Neither, simply a reference to your comments about directly related threads that took place long before you joined TC.
  7. #67  
    Seen on a bumper-sticker: "God does not favor one group or race over another; religions do that."

    It seems to me that whatever potential for improving the behavior of mankind that religion may have, is more than off-set by the pernicious idea that God chooses sides in the affairs of men and that we have a responsibility to do "God's Work" by coercing, to the point of death, other men.
  8. #68  
    The ideas of the "Chosen People," the promised land, the anointed, the saved, the faithful, patriarchy, The Party of God (Hezbollah), and racial superiority and purity seem to be historically and inextricably linked with monotheism.

    From these ideas stem the practices of shunning, ostracism, ex-communication, the inquisition, the burning of witches, the pogrom, European and American exceptionalism, imperialism, colonialism, the (forcible) conversion of the heathen, slavery, crusades, jihad, the subjugation of women, and terrorism.
    Last edited by whmurray; 07/18/2006 at 07:38 AM.
  9. #69  
    Its probably unfair to blame religion for all these ills. If it was not religion it would be economic systems, or skin colour.

    Blame human nature.

    Surur
  10.    #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Not to mention that the Christian God is at least possible.
    You are implying that some religion's are impossible? Can you tell us which ones? And while you are at it, tell us how you would go about disproving the magical, invisible jelly monsters.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    You are implying that some religion's are impossible? Can you tell us which ones? And while you are at it, tell us how you would go about disproving the magical, invisible jelly monsters.
    No, that's not what I was implying. Since religion is a system of beliefs its difficult to say one is impossible because people can believe in just about anything. Certain tenets of religions can be seen as impossible (e.g. the Gods being at the top of Mt. Olympus, the world sitting on the back of a turtle, etc), but even that is somewhat based on interpretation. And, certainly, most religions are based on untruths by virtue of the fact that all religions say a certain amount of conflict things.

    By the way, I wouldn't dream of trying to disprove the magical, invisible jelly monster. It's as real as any red herring.
    Last edited by hoovs; 07/18/2006 at 09:30 AM.
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Its probably unfair to blame religion for all these ills. If it was not religion it would be economic systems, or skin colour.

    Blame human nature.

    Surur
    I was not placing blame so much as pointing out a relationship between certain religious ideas and (im)moral behavior that those ideas are used to justify. The question before us is whether or not religion has made us more moral? I argue that to whatever extent it may have done so, it is offset to the degree that it has made us less so. I would argue that the former is not nearly so easy to demonstrate as the latter.

    One might demonstrate the former by a showing that religious people are less prone to the behaviors that I pointed out than non-religious people. As people are dying by the hundreds every day in what appears to be a never-ending religious war, that is a a very difficult case to make. The adversaries in this war both seem equally convinced that, not only does God take their side, but that (s)he expects them to make the world better by killing all of those of a different faith. They cannot both be right but, from where I sit, they both appear equally wrong.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Its probably unfair to blame religion for all these ills. If it was not religion it would be economic systems, or skin colour.

    Blame human nature.

    Surur
    Dinnet argues that religion (and its consequences) is part of human nature.
  14. #74  
    That raises a good point actually, which was touched upon earlier by another poster. Is apparently moral behavior done under duress (or the threat of eternal torture) really moral? To give a concrete example, if prisoners are forced to clear the road verge, are they as moral as people who empathise with the natural environment and volunteer to do it, for no obvious personal gain and some sacrifice? Surely deeds done under duress does not count, and what greater duress than eternal damnation?

    Surur
  15. #75  
    Dinnet argues that religion (and its consequences) is part of human nature.

    I am sure that its true, but also that religion is the ultimate parasitic meme. As an example, isn't it odd that many religions appose birth control? This is clearly aimed at increasing fecundity, and thereby maintaining the religious population. The religions who promoted celibacy just died out. I am sure religions who promote large families breed like-minded people who are succeptible to its message.

    Also religions who believe they are the one and only truth, and would kill to prove it obviously are very good at eradicating their more meek competition. Just look at the forced conversion of many many native peoples.

    There are more examples, but I think these two illustrate the point.

    Surur
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Not to mention that the Christian God is at least possible.
    Perhaps. However, I do not think that the expression, "Christian God" is sufficiently unambiguous that one can say "possible," or not.
  17. #77  
    Christian God= invisible, all-powerful being that doesn't do much.

    When Homer Simpson was in trouble he called out for Superman. Seems as plausible to me.

    Surur
  18. #78  
    I though Homer prayed to Jeebus! Learn something new everyday.
    Brent
    T650 on Sprint's Wireless Wonder
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Christian God= invisible, all-powerful being that doesn't do much.
    .........Surur
    Okay. I guess that is possible.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    The ideas of the "Chosen People," the promised land, the anointed, the saved, the faithful, patriarchy, The Party of God (Hezbollah), and racial superiority and purity seem to be historically and inextricably linked with monotheism.

    From these ideas stem the practices of shunning, ostracism, ex-communication, the inquisition, the burning of witches, the pogrom, European and American exceptionalism, imperialism, colonialism, the (forcible) conversion of the heathen, slavery, crusades, jihad, the subjugation of women, and terrorism.
    Of course, I can't defend all monotheistic religions, but I don't believe imperialism and colonialism stem from monotheistic ideas. I think they stem from tribalism. Also, one could argue that ideas stemming from certain monotheistic religions ended infanticide and human sacrifice, emperor worship (ending at least some forms of imperialism), slavery, cannibalism and the ownership of wives.
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