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  1.    #1  
    Israeli jets strike Beirut airport

    JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israeli fighter jets bombed Beirut International Airport Thursday, expanding Israel's military campaign against Lebanon's Hezbollah guerrillas holding two Israeli soldiers captive.
    Israel hits Palestinian Foreign Ministry building

    GAZA CITY (CNN) -- An Israeli airstrike hit the Palestinian Foreign Ministry headquarters in Gaza City early Thursday, wounding at least 10 people and destroying the fourth and fifth floors of the building, Palestinian security sources and witnesses said.
    So, this is supposed to be about the Palestinians, right? Well, Israel withdraws from Gaza and they're rewarded by harsh words from Hamas, daily Kassam rocket attacks from the Gaza strip, a record number of weapons being smuggled into Gaza from Egypt, and a cross-border raid and kidnapping from Hizbollah. Why? Was Hamas about to de facto recognize Israel? And without the "Palestinian Cause" it's Arab neighbors lose international support for their "struggle" against Israel. So, Hizbollah and Islamic Jihad stir the pot a little bit just to keep up the fighting? Or was the plan to recognize Israel just a diversionary tactic meant to try to garner support from the West on one side while shelling Israel on the other (ala the PLO)? I don't know. I do know that the disengagement plan certainly hasn't had the desired effects. But who really thought it would anyway?
  2. kvcobra's Avatar
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    #2  
    First,most of what you stated is simple fact; therefore I agree with it.

    Second, to which/whom's disengagement plan do you refer?
    ... Als sie mich holten, gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.
    ... Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out.
    -- Rev. Martin Niemöller

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  3.    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by kvcobra
    Second, to which/whom's disengagement plan do you refer?
    Sharon's
  4. #4  
    And yet, disengagement is the only possible way. Israel lacks the number of Jewish immigrants (and international as well as internal support) to fully occupy the West Bank and Gaza. Sharon realized that and acted accordingly.

    One major problem is that a relatively small percentage of extremists (Hezbollah, Hamas hardliners and the like on one side, but also, if things really start moving in Israel, extremist Orthodox Jews on the other side) can cause enough violence to make negotiations impossible.

    Another thing is the wall Israel is building along the West Bank border. Increasing security in Israel by preventing infiltration of suicide bombers is certainly a good idea. But why did Israel choose to abuse this security wall to take away even more land from the Palestinians and make their life impossible in many places? It is the perfect way to cause more humiliation, understandable outrage, hatred, and therefore violence. Israel is non only a victim, they also cause part of the situation.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    And yet, disengagement is the only possible way. Israel lacks the number of Jewish immigrants (and international as well as internal support) to fully occupy the West Bank and Gaza. Sharon realized that and acted accordingly.

    One major problem is that a relatively small percentage of extremists (Hezbollah, Hamas hardliners and the like on one side, but also, if things really start moving in Israel, extremist Orthodox Jews on the other side) can cause enough violence to make negotiations impossible.

    Another thing is the wall Israel is building along the West Bank border. Increasing security in Israel by preventing infiltration of suicide bombers is certainly a good idea. But why did Israel choose to abuse this security wall to take away even more land from the Palestinians and make their life impossible in many places? It is the perfect way to cause more humiliation, understandable outrage, hatred, and therefore violence. Israel is non only a victim, they also cause part of the situation.
    I agree that each side is contributing to the problem. I'm unsettled with the use of the term "cause" as I see it here.

    No action on my "causes" any action on your part. You reaction may me understandable, reasonable, and justifiable in light of what I have done, but the decision to act (or react as it were) remains solely with you.

    I suppose my action can cause you humiliation, but outrage, hatred and violence are optional.
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I suppose my action can cause you humiliation, but outrage, hatred and violence are optional.
    Unless you have a population consisting of Mahatma Gandhis or cowards only, outrage and ultimately uprising and violence are the inevitable consequence of constant humiliation. It's a fact of life.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  7. TomUps's Avatar
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    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Unless you have a population consisting of Mahatma Gandhis or cowards only, outrage and ultimately uprising and violence are the inevitable consequence of constant humiliation. It's a fact of life.
    And on the other side, military incursions and military strikes are inevitable when your neighbor is ruled by a government thats goal is the destruction of Israel. A neighbor who targets and murders children.

    How has Israel humiliated Hezbolah?
    Last edited by TomUps; 07/13/2006 at 09:21 AM.
  8. NRG
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    #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    And on the other side, military incursions and military strikes are inevitable when your neighbor is ruled by a government thats goal is the destruction of Israel. A neighbor who targets and murders children.

    How has Israel humiliated Hezbolah?
    This was going on before that party took power. What about the palestian children, or do only Isreali kids count?
  9. TomUps's Avatar
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    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    This was going on before that party took power. What about the palestian children, or do only Isreali kids count?
    So now were going to play the "who did what first" game? You have to admit hamas' refusal to change the official stance of the Palestinian goverment that it will only accept the destruction of Israel, might be considered a hindurance to any peace.

    I dont want to see any children killed. On either side. Can you say the same?

    You want to argue that Hamas has a right to target civilians, thats fine ( I disagree though), but what right does Hezbolah have in attacking Israel?

    How can Lebanon claim their innoncence when Hezbolah launches daily attacks and rockets from their territory?
    Last edited by TomUps; 07/13/2006 at 10:07 AM.
  10. NRG
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    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    So now were going to play the "who did what first" game? You have to admit hamas' refusal to change the official stance of the Palestinian goverment that it will only accept the destruction of Israel, might be considered a hindurance to any peace.

    I dont want to see any children killed. On either side. Can you say the same?

    You want to argue that Hamas has a right to target civilians, thats fine ( I disagree though), but what right does Hezbolah have in attacking Israel.
    It could be argued that, Isreal targets palestian civilians as well. NO, I do not want to see anyone killed. I also feel that what some of them(palestians) are asking for is a, bit much. One thousand jailed, for one soldier trade is not realistic.

    But really they should just divide Isreal in half along w/ Jerusalem, just like Berlin/Germany. Give the southren half to the Palestians, and the northren half to the UN's creation of Isreal.
  11. TomUps's Avatar
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    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    It oculd be argued that Isreal targets palestian civilians as well. NO, I do not want to see anyone killed. What some of them(palestians) are asking for is bit much. One thousand jailed, for one soldier trade. But really they should just Isreal in half along w/ Jerusalem, just like Berlin/Germany. Give the southern half to the Palestians, and the northren half to the UN's creation of Isreal.
    I agree somewhat. I would be more than willing to trade one soldier for one palestinian prisoner. I would not trade 1 for 1,000.

    What do you do though about the Palestinian government only excepting the destruction of Israel? I would figure that would need to change first.

    And I ask again, what right does Hezbolah have in attacking Israel?
  12. NRG
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    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    I agree somewhat. I would be more than willing to trade one soldier for one palestinian prisoner. I would not trade 1 for 1,000.
    Agreed. move this issue aside.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    What do you do though about the Palestinian government only excepting the destruction of Israel? I would figure that would need to change first.
    I think you meant to 'accepting' not excepting. I think their hearts would be changed if the UN state was divided in half.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    And I ask again, what right does Hezbolah have in attacking Israel?
    This could get very touchy. But, this goes back thousands of years. It could be a direct response to the palestians killed on the beach a week or 2 ago by Isreal or it could be from kidnapped soldier, or maybe it is just a simple retaliation to attacks by Hezbollah(ick, I just hate saying that word).Either way it should stop.
  13. TomUps's Avatar
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    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Agreed. move this issue aside.

    I think you meant to 'accepting' not eexcepting. I think their hearts would be changed if the UN state was divided in half.

    This could get very touchy. But, this goes back thousands of years. It could be a direct response to the palestians killed on the beach a week or 2 ago by Isreal.Either way it should stop.
    Um, so your solution is to cut Israel in half? Its never going to happen. Why should the Palestinians be given any part of Israel pre 1967 war?

    Gaza and the Westbank were annexed from Jordan, Why cant the palestinians live there?. Maybe we should give Iraq back to the british then.
  14. NRG
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    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Um, so your solution is to cut Israel in half? Its never going to happen. Why should the Palestinians be given any part of Israel pre 1967 war?
    This begs the question of 'Why does Isreal deserve any of the land in the first place?".

    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Gaza and the Westbank were annexed from Jordan, Why cant the palestinians live there?. Maybe we should give Iraq back to the british then.
    Again, why can't the Isrealis live there? I would make the argument that the Palestians did not just show up there, where modren day Isreal is.
  15. TomUps's Avatar
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    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    This begs the question of 'Why does Isreal deserve any of the land in the first place?".

    Again, why can't the Isrealis live there? I would make the argument that the Palestians did not just show up there, where modren day Isreal is.
    Why do the palestinians deserve it then. There were plenty of jews living in the land that became Israel prior to the UN mandate in 1948.

    The UN mandate was over 50 years ago, if we want to look back on past agreements, maybe we should give Alaska back to russia.

    Asking Israel to cut itself in half, is never going to lead to a solution because its not going to happen. The only solution would be the palestinians living in the Westbank and gaza, peacefully next to a soveriegn Israeli state.
  16. NRG
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Why do the palestinians deserve it then. There were plenty of jews living in the land that became Israel prior to the UN mandate in 1948.

    The UN mandate was over 50 years ago, if we want to look back on past agreements, maybe we should give Alaska back to russia.

    Asking Israel to cut itself in half, is never going to lead to a solution because its not going to happen. The only solution would be the palestinians living in the Westbank and gaza, peacefully next to a soveriegn Israeli state.
    I feel the palestians were not represented during the time and creation of Isreal. Here read this google answer for me. Then tell me how you feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Question
    I am often confused by Palestinians' outrage over Israel forcefully
    taking over t h e i r their country in 1948(?) for creating its own
    state instead. Looking for references I couldn't find a sovereign,
    distinctive nation/country called Palestine before 1948. Where should
    I look for maps, government, and how was Palestine - if at all -
    different from the surrounding Arab countries, what were/are it's
    unique national character that set them apart from Jordan, Syria?
    Quote Originally Posted by Answer
    This is an interesting question because I wanted to research the
    origins of the problem myself for some time but never got around to it
    before. The United Nations have quite a few pages on it. You might
    want to check out "The Origins and evolution of the Palestine Problem
    1917-1988" ( http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpal/dpr/DPR_pp_1.htm ).

    The difficulties of finding much info about the pre 1948 situation is
    probably directly related with Palestine already being an "occupied"
    territory since WW I (British Mandate). This resulted (as many other
    territorial problems causing war today) in the European nations
    struggle over outside territory. Palestine played a major role in
    these struggles as it is home to holy places of three world religions.
    The struggle began, when the Ottoman Empire disintegrated. Different
    nations tried to lay claim on the Palestine territory and plans were
    drawn up on how to split it (the details of which you can find in the
    above mentioned source). The European nations however recognized the
    reality of the people living there demanding an Arab state on this
    territory and agreed with this demand. Assurances were made on several
    occasions (especially when the Allies needed the support of the local
    leaders to counter Germany's interests in the area).
    At the same time the British government gave Zionist leaders
    assurances to parts of Palestine, too. British delegations stated in
    later conferences that Palestine had not been included in the
    assurances given to Arab leaders for independent Arab nations. The
    British also disregarded the principles drawn up in earlier agreements
    with other nations that the people inhabiting a territory should also
    decide about its government.

    The definition of the term “Palestinian” is pretty difficult, too.
    There are people who claim that there was no Palestinian identity
    before the British Mandate artificially created one. Cultural
    similarities at least between the people of Jordan and the
    Palestinians of that time were pretty slim according to the sources I
    was able to locate. Read e.g. this list of quotes in “The Palestinian
    Identity” ( http://www.netreach.net/~zoa/newsLin...ckers/m100.htm
    ).
    Most sources I encountered in my search are highly political and
    contain little fact. This is after all still a highly sensitive
    subject.

    Summing up the facts:

    Palestine wasn't a distinct nation before 1948. It existed as a
    territory under British Mandate. Before that it belonged to the
    Ottoman Empire. The "Palestinians" are made up of the people living
    there before the Zionists arrived. As for their differences in culture
    to the other Arab nations in the region I couldn’t find much. Keep in
    mind that Palestine was for a long time part of other empires that
    also included what now is Syria, Jordan, Iraq, etc. This also answers
    your question about a government: Palestine was ruled by the
    governments of the Ottoman Empire and the British Empire in recent
    times. There is a history of semi-organized resistance to the rulers
    but nothing that you could compare to a government (even one in exile
    or hiding).

    I hope this is what you wanted - feel free to ask for clarification if
    I have been to vague.

    I saw that orbitalelement’s comment already answered most of the
    question. I lost my connection to the net and couldn’t dial in anymore
    for a while to extend my lock in it. I thought though that my answer
    provides additional information so I posted it as an answer anyways.
    Sorry for that!

    Additional Resources:

    Another good place to look for a brief history of the region with a
    wider focus is located at the "A history of Palestine" page (
    http://www.palestinehistory.com/palst.htm ). It deals with the
    region's long history of occupation by different nations.

    At "History of Israel and Palestine in very easy to understand maps" (
    http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html ) you'll find maps of the
    region from before the foundation of Israel. The page "Quick timeline
    1900-2000" ( http://www.palestinehistory.com/qtime.htm ) also uses
    maps to document what happened.

    A more extensive chronology can be found at "History of the Nakba" (
    http://www.alnakba.org/chronology/chronology.htm ).

    Review of Khalidi's studies
    http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~me...v/khalidi.html

    Amazon.com's listing of "Palestinian Identity" by Rashid Khalidi
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...bosnation0e-20

    Palestinians: The Making of a People (Review)
    By Baruch Kimmerling and Joel S. Migdal
    New York: Free Press, 1993. 396 pp. $29.95
    http://www.danielpipes.org/reviews/199304.shtml

    Amazon.com's listing of Palestinians: The Making of a People
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...bosnation0e-20

    www.dictionary.com’s list of dictionary entries on Palestine
    http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=palestine&db=%2A

    "history of Palestine" map
    http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...lestine%22+map
  17. NRG
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    #17  
    Here is also "A Brief History of Israel and Palestine and the Conflict"
    http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    This was going on before that party took power. What about the palestian children, or do only Isreali kids count?
    Yes the fact that children die from attacks from both sides is undeniable. But what some like Suru and DaT fail to recognize is that Hamas (which is supported by the Palestinian gov) premeditates how to maximize civilian causalities by purposely planning targets with the highest concentration of civilian families with malice that include as many women and children as possible. They also initiate the attacks.

    Israel also does have victims that include families, women, and children. But they were not the target. Israel targets military or terrorist objectives. They also generally do not initiate attacks but respond to them. Big differences.

    I remember about 2 years ago on of the Hamas leaders knew he was being targeted and purposely surrounded himself with civilians as human shields. When Israel took him out and some of the Hamas placed human shields died, Palestinians rallied in the street claiming Israel was targeting their children with no regard.....even though the attack on this Hamas leader was in retaliation for one of the deadliest attacks at a restaurant planned by that leader killing something like 40 men, women, and children.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/13/2006 at 11:34 AM.
  19. TomUps's Avatar
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    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Here is also "A Brief History of Israel and Palestine and the Conflict"
    http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm
    I know all about the history of Israelis creation. Did you know the original mandate called for both a jewish state and an arab state? Did you know the arabs turned it down because they wanted it all?

    Did you know a few days after Israel was created, six arab countries invaded?
    Did you know over 99% of the Middle East is Arab, and the jews make up less than 1%
    Did you know before the 1967 war there was no call for a sperate palestinian state? mainly because the Westbank and Gaza were part of Jordan.

    Anyway, none of this really matters, because Israel will never allow its country to be divided in half. If thats the only solution, then the war goes on.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I feel the palestians were not represented during the time and creation of Isreal. Here read this google answer for me. Then tell me how you feel.
    One of the things I think is a good question is......The Palestinians have not had a national identity of self rule of unified culture for decades or centuries due to be ruled by a foreign gov or empire. Then one of the good things that I give Clinton positive credit for is his last ditch attempt at a peace agreement with Israel and Palestine. He offered Palestine over 90% of the land that they demanded was theirs. With the fact that they now have the closest thing to their own government in recent and not so recent history, it would have also solidified an opportunity to be their own identity as part of the agreement was Israel total withdraw from those lands. Israel agreed to the offer. Palestine refused claiming that it was not enough. They refused not because of the land offer and withdrawal but basically because their objection is removing Israel from the map with totality, not just their own independence.
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