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  1. NRG
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    #141  
    Blog from Lebanon. thought some of you might find this interesting. Be sure to check the commets.

    http://lebanesebloggers.blogspot.com/
    Last edited by NRG; 07/16/2006 at 07:18 PM.
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    The alternative is do nothing and let you own people die by future terrorist attacks. Any parent who lets their child near a terrorist safe house, meeting house ,or hq should be ashamed of themselves.
    Assuming they know its a terrorist location. Im sure most the neighbors know but maybe not locals outside that location.

    Maybe we should expect soldiers to go house to house and ferret out the terrorists instead of bombing...it might lead to less civilian deaths but the percentage of military casualties goes up exponentially (versus bombing.)
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  3. TomUps's Avatar
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    #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Blog from Lebanon. thought some of you might find this interesting. Be sure to check the commets.

    http://lebanesebloggers.blogspot.com/
    While I feel for Lebanonese civilians caught in the cross-fire, they must remember that their own country gives safe harbor to a terrorist organization that a few days ago started this whole mess by invading Israel, and continues today firing missles and rockets into Israeli cities.

    I think the days of harboring terrorists while compalining about a retaliatory response by an attacked nation should be (and are probably are) over. Israel knows that they are now fighting for their survival. Why would they stop now just to let hezbollah re-arm, and recieve newer missles from Iran and Syria?
    Last edited by TomUps; 07/16/2006 at 07:53 PM.
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    #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Assuming they know its a terrorist location. Im sure most the neighbors know but maybe not locals outside that location.

    Maybe we should expect soldiers to go house to house and ferret out the terrorists instead of bombing...it might lead to less civilian deaths but the percentage of military casualties goes up exponentially (versus bombing.)
    I thinking fighting a war where one side has to be held up to a greater moral standard can only lead to more of your soldiers and civilians dead.
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    I thinking fighting a war where one side has to be held up to a greater moral standard can only lead to more of your soldiers and civilians dead.
    I understand your point but doesnt that lead to the conclusion of what the the lowest common denominator will will (i.e. eventually all rules of war are abolished and each side employs just terrorist attacks.)? Im not sure that is something I support.

    Maybe there is an argument for lowering standards of war down to a certain level but matching the enemy by going to their standards is a dangerous proposal.
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I understand your point but doesnt that lead to the conclusion of what the the lowest common denominator will will (i.e. eventually all rules of war are abolished and each side employs just terrorist attacks.)? Im not sure that is something I support.

    Maybe there is an argument for lowering standards of war down to a certain level but matching the enemy by going to their standards is a dangerous proposal.
    I'm sorry, but the Israeli's have employed terrorist tactics from the King David Hotel to your son calling your cell phone.
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I'm sorry, but the Israeli's have employed terrorist tactics from the King David Hotel to your son calling your cell phone.
    You are going to have to break down your references...Im not getting them

    If I assume what you are saying is that the Israeli's are already using terrorist tactics, then the question then becomes "Should they use even more extreme terrorist tactics?"

    DAT: if your answer is that they already are, then do you have a problem with the guided ordinance being used in civilian populated areas that are safe harbor's for pockets of terrorists?
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  8.    #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    You are going to have to break down your references...Im not getting them

    If I assume what you are saying is that the Israeli's are already using terrorist tactics, then the question then becomes "Should they use even more extreme terrorist tactics?"

    DAT: if your answer is that they already are, then do you have a problem with the guided ordinance being used in civilian populated areas that are safe harbor's for pockets of terrorists?
    Yeah, I caught the King David Hotel reference but the cell phone thing threw me off.
  9. #149  
    There is a new publication by the US Army about fighting insurgencies which clearly shows how e.g. excessive force and bad treatment of the local population can lead to losing a war. The report is more a response to the situation in Iraq, but most of it also applies to Israel, in my view. For decades, they have been doing exactly what is NOT recommended to do according to this latest US army manual, and they continue doing it in Lebanon right now. Israel has the right to defend itself, but often they are doing it in a counterproductive way which does not merit support, certainly when the suppression of the Palestinian people during the last years and decades is concerned.

    You can find the original publication here: http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24fd.pdf

    Here's a report on it in the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...070701151.html

    Some key points:

    "The more force used, the less effective it is."

    "An operation that kills five insurgents is counterproductive if the collateral damage or the creation of blood feuds leads to the recruitment of fifty more."
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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    #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I'm sorry, but the Israeli's have employed terrorist tactics from the King David Hotel to your son calling your cell phone.
    Whatever that means. Strange though, no reference from DaT about Hezbollah, who started this whole thing a few days ago by invading Israel. Strange no mention about the rocket fire and missle fre raining down on Israeli citizens. No choice now except for Israel to crush Hezbollah.

    The Lebaonese have Hezbollah to thank for destroying their country.
  11. TomUps's Avatar
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    #151  
    There is a new publication by the US Army about fighting insurgencies which clearly shows how e.g. excessive force and bad treatment of the local population can lead to losing a war. The report is more a response to the situation in Iraq, but most of it also applies to Israel, in my view.
    You do understand that Israel is fighting for their own survival now. They were invaded by a terrorist organization a few days back, that uses the Lebanonese cities and civilians as a safe base for its attacks. I fail to see a difference here to Afghanistan where the taliban let Al-Qaida operate openly.

    I guess to you, the Israelis should just get use to living in bomb shelters while Hezbollah keeps firing away. Israel can't defend itself because some innocent civilians may die.
  12. #152  
    Irrelevant to Israel's. They are hated from a strong root in the teachings of radical Islam. No change in the strength or weakness of Israel military responses would make a difference. The only way is for Israel to kill all Hizbollah members.

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    There is a new publication by the US Army about fighting insurgencies which clearly shows how e.g. excessive force and bad treatment of the local population can lead to losing a war. The report is more a response to the situation in Iraq, but most of it also applies to Israel, in my view. For decades, they have been doing exactly what is NOT recommended to do according to this latest US army manual, and they continue doing it in Lebanon right now. Israel has the right to defend itself, but often they are doing it in a counterproductive way which does not merit support, certainly when the suppression of the Palestinian people during the last years and decades is concerned.

    You can find the original publication here: http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24fd.pdf

    Here's a report on it in the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...070701151.html

    Some key points:

    "The more force used, the less effective it is."

    "An operation that kills five insurgents is counterproductive if the collateral damage or the creation of blood feuds leads to the recruitment of fifty more."
  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Irrelevant to Israel's. They are hated from a strong root in the teachings of radical Islam. No change in the strength or weakness of Israel military responses would make a difference. The only way is for Israel to kill all Hizbollah members.
    No misunderstanding? This is really what you meant to say?
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    I thinking fighting a war where one side has to be held up to a greater moral standard can only lead to more of your soldiers and civilians dead.
    On one hand, refusal to mediate between the sides because one side are "murdering terrorists", on the other hand, no repudiation of 2000 pound bombs in subdivisions because of a refusal to "hold to a higher moral standard".

    We'll have peace in no time.
  15. NRG
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    #155  
    Disporportinate responses.
  16. #156  
    How many soldiers does Israel allow to be kidnapped, how many civilians are allowed to be killed before Israel starts killing Hizbullah members? The only way for victory is for Israel to kill all Hizbollah members.

    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Disporportinate responses.
  17. NRG
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    #157  
    I just saw this.

    Lebanon - 165 civilians dead, 415 wounded
    Israel - 24 civilians dead, 75 wounded

    That is MORE THAN 6X the civilian deaths.

    DISPORPORTINATE RESPONSE!!!!!
    Last edited by NRG; 07/17/2006 at 09:10 AM.
  18. NRG
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    #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    How many soldiers does Israel allow to be kidnapped, how many civilians are allowed to be killed before Israel starts killing Hizbullah members? The only way for victory is for Israel to kill all Hizbollah members.
    OK 2 soldiers are kidnapped. I just feel a ground force would be more effective, and safer to the surrounding civilian population.
    Last edited by NRG; 07/17/2006 at 09:49 AM.
  19. #159  
    The murdering terrorists have bunkers under civilian parking garages. They put rocket launchers on top of apartment buildings. Once this occurs they are military targets regardless of who is in them. If I'm a father of six living in that apartment building, I would leave with my family. Israel is kind enough to have been dropping leaflets warning of impeding bombing (i.e. we will be bombing you in 2 - 3 hours). True about no peace, there will be no peace till all of Hizbullah, Hamas and Al Queda are destroyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    On one hand, refusal to mediate between the sides because one side are "murdering terrorists", on the other hand, no repudiation of 2000 pound bombs in subdivisions because of a refusal to "hold to a higher moral standard".

    We'll have peace in no time.
  20. NRG
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    #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    True about no peace, there will be no peace till all of Hizbullah, Hamas and Al Queda are destroyed.
    Then there will never be peace, not as long as someone in power follows that horrible doctrine.
    Last edited by Dieter Bohn; 07/17/2006 at 09:45 AM. Reason: transparently foul language
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