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  1. #681  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    The war for muslim hearts and minds is one that Israel will never win, the one for survival they will.
    Given that Israel has nuclear weapons, this statement disturbs me.
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    #682  
    I would love to see Hezbollah and Hamas neutralized, but continued fighting is what Hezbollah wants more than anything. Why should we help them by playing their game? Its stupid if you ask me.
    I'm not sure I see what your suggesting?
    It kind of sounds like you want Israel to do nothing when its borders are invaded. It kind of sounds like you want Israel to do nothing when rockets are launched at its cities. It kind of sounds like you want Israel to do nothing when terrorists blow up its children in pizza parlors.
    You want Israel to do nothing because a military response to these violent actions might result in Hezbollah getting its way? Is this your theory? About 10 million jews are surronded by a few hundred million muslims. Jews in Israel do not have the luxory of sitting idle while their people are killed, because fighting back might make your enemy more popular in the muslim world, simply because there are not enough jews left on the planet. For the first time in history (or atleast thousands of years) jews have a country that enables them to fight back against groups of men that have made it their lifes work to eradicate all jews from the planet. I hope theres more to your plan than do nothing while your attacked.

    Showing weakness to your enemy is the worst thing Israel can do. Hezbollah would probably not be here today if the US did the right thing after the marine barracks disaster. Doing nothing, has allowed Hezbollah to grow strong. I only wish some people here on these boards held hezbollah and other arab nations up to the same standards that you feel Israel must follow.
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    #683  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Given that Israel has nuclear weapons, this statement disturbs me.
    Not sure what your getting at. Please explain.
  4. NRG
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    #684  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    I'm not sure I see what your suggesting?
    It kind of sounds like you want Israel to do nothing when its borders are invaded. It kind of sounds like you want Israel to do nothing when rockets are launched at its cities. It kind of sounds like you want Israel to do nothing when terrorists blow up its children in pizza parlors.
    You want Israel to do nothing because a military response to these violent actions might result in Hezbollah getting its way? Is this your theory? About 10 million jews are surronded by a few hundred million muslims. Jews in Israel do not have the luxory of sitting idle while their people are killed, because fighting back might make your enemy more popular in the muslim world, simply because there are not enough jews left on the planet. For the first time in history (or atleast thousands of years) jews have a country that enables them to fight back against groups of men that have made it their lifes work to eradicate all jews from the planet. I hope theres more to your plan than do nothing while your attacked.

    Showing weakness to your enemy is the worst thing Israel can do. Hezbollah would probably not be here today if the US did the right thing after the marine barracks disaster. Doing nothing, has allowed Hezbollah to grow strong. I only wish some people here on these boards held hezbollah and other arab nations up to the same standards that you feel Israel must follow.
  5. #685  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    I'm not sure I see what your suggesting?
    It kind of sounds like you want Israel to do nothing when its borders are invaded. It kind of sounds like you want Israel to do nothing when rockets are launched at its cities. It kind of sounds like you want Israel to do nothing when terrorists blow up its children in pizza parlors.
    You want Israel to do nothing because a military response to these violent actions might result in Hezbollah getting its way? Is this your theory? About 10 million jews are surronded by a few hundred million muslims. Jews in Israel do not have the luxory of sitting idle while their people are killed, because fighting back might make your enemy more popular in the muslim world, simply because there are not enough jews left on the planet. For the first time in history (or atleast thousands of years) jews have a country that enables them to fight back against groups of men that have made it their lifes work to eradicate all jews from the planet. I hope theres more to your plan than do nothing while your attacked.

    Showing weakness to your enemy is the worst thing Israel can do. Hezbollah would probably not be here today if the US did the right thing after the marine barracks disaster. Doing nothing, has allowed Hezbollah to grow strong. I only wish some people here on these boards held hezbollah and other arab nations up to the same standards that you feel Israel must follow.
    I am quite concerned for the future of Israel myself, but feel the offensive has now outlived its effectiveness. Do you seriously think anyone would consider Israel weak by pulling out now after raveging south Lebanon like it has been doing? Not in your dreams.

    This notion that you can stomp terrorists out like cockroaches is flawed. The more you stomp, the more you will create. You can nuke south Lebanon free of terrorists if you really want to go aggressive with this, but don't you realize it would create ten times as many terrorists in North Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and elsewhere?

    So further trampling South Lebanon into the dust is a "feel good" exercise for some but does it really help the situation at this point? No, its time to pull out, and keep the threat on for later if things do not go like we want. We need to move on to an open conversation with Syria with serious Henry Kissenger like aggressive diplomacy.

    We need to go into this enlisting the support of moderate arab nations like Jordan and Egypt but we cannot do that when their political bases are watching dead arab children on Al-Jazeera.

    The current half hearted diplomacy to prove we are "trying to do something" to our own political bases is not going to cut it. If you go into it expecting to fail, I guarantee you will.
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    #686  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I am quite concerned for the future of Israel myself, but feel the offensive has now outlived its effectiveness. Do you seriously think anyone would consider Israel weak by pulling out now after raveging south Lebanon like it has been doing? Not in your dreams.
    You could not be more wrong if you tried. If Israel pulled out now, without weakening Hezbollah, without removing Hezbollahs rocket capability, it would be seen by the arab world as a major victory for Hezbollah. This ofcourse would lead to a tremendous surge in recruitment and donations. Also, the arab world will see the strategy of a terrorist guerilla organization as a winning formula against the west. Afterall, Hezbollah would be the first arab force to fight Israel to even a stand still. Israel pulling out now would be a disaster.

    Israel is defending their right to exist...What is hezbollah fighting for? Can anyone answer this for me please. Can you guys imagine if al-qaida sat on our mexican border, being given a safe haven, with thousands of rockets capable of reaching houston. Do you really think the US would ask Egypt and Jordan to help us out?
  7. #687  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    So further trampling South Lebanon into the dust is a "feel good" exercise for some but does it really help the situation at this point? No, its time to pull out, and keep the threat on for later if things do not go like we want. We need to move on to an open conversation with Syria with serious Henry Kissenger like aggressive diplomacy...
    I hear what you're saying and it makes sense. Nonetheless, if you are the Israeli PM on July 17, 2006 (or the American president on September 12, 2001), you'd have two choices: to respond to terror with force or not. Most likely you are going to face pressure from political parties as well as your citizens to do something. Responding to terror attack or provocation becomes instinctive and, often, dogmatic. Using force seems like the right-thing-to-do initially but (as you suggest) in the long run it might not solve the problem. I am not sure that diplomacy can eliminate or reduce terror better, but it is a nice idea anyhow, and certainly less civilians die (in the short-run, at least; supposedly the US dropped "the" bomb on Japan to save lives in the long run).
    Food for thoughts.
    Last edited by impish; 08/02/2006 at 10:18 PM.
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    #688  
    Most Israelis want to live in peace with their neighbors, but you cant have a terrorist organization with missles a few hundred yards off your border pointed at you northern cities. It just wont work.
  9. #689  
    It is a riddle that no one has been able to solve. Terrorist purposely plot to and carried plans to kill innocent civilians. It is okay for terrorists to attack others, but is viewed as horrific when they are attacked as result of their attacks. This is supported in many Islamic Extremist circles as long as it against the West, USA, or Israel. There is not one example in history that I know about where negotiations were honored or successful with negotiating with terrors. It has been proven that not responding to terrorist attacks only fuels then by giving them power due to an unchallenged victory while giving them time to plan and carry out the next attack at their leisure. To attack them I think does give them power as cellmatrix pointed out, but does offer challenges to the terrorist as well. This again gives them power via sympathy.

    So don't attack, gives them a free claim to victory to help with recruiting and planning next attack with all resources in tack and no pressure to be on the move.

    Do attack, and they gain sympathy which helps with recruiting, but makes it harder for them to plan their next attack as they are on the run and lose resources. But may gain more via terrorist sympathizers (which does include terrorist supporting gov *cough* Iran / Syria *cough*).

    The key is as long as terrorist are viewed in a supporting way, they will be the hero if they attack or if they are attacked. As long as their acts are not denounced by mainstream Islam they will continue to grow. The logic is futile to comprehend at times.
  10. #690  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    You could not be more wrong if you tried. If Israel pulled out now, without weakening Hezbollah, without removing Hezbollahs rocket capability, it would be seen by the arab world as a major victory for Hezbollah. This ofcourse would lead to a tremendous surge in recruitment and donations. Also, the arab world will see the strategy of a terrorist guerilla organization as a winning formula against the west. Afterall, Hezbollah would be the first arab force to fight Israel to even a stand still. Israel pulling out now would be a disaster.

    Israel is defending their right to exist...What is hezbollah fighting for? Can anyone answer this for me please. Can you guys imagine if al-qaida sat on our mexican border, being given a safe haven, with thousands of rockets capable of reaching houston. Do you really think the US would ask Egypt and Jordan to help us out?
    Israel is fighting an enemy who is bent on its destruction, that is for sure. That is not the question here. The point is how is the best way to erradicate this very real threat. If the mexicans decided to attack us, what tradition, what cultural heritage would enable them to claim this is a holy war? What other latin american countries in the region would buy into that? This attempt to try to draw an analogy in mexico to the current situation in the mideast falls far far short.

    I do approve of Israel fighting back. There gets to a point where war helps the diplomacy, and there is another point where war hurts the diplomacy. War mongers who just love war for wars sake, will try to sabotage diplomacy at all costs. Hezbollah is like that. I am not saying you are like that, mind you, but we have to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking like that. As we fight, we have to think about how eventually we can wrap this up. Like I said, we cannot stomp terrorism out like we can stomp out cockroaches. We have to enlist the coorperation of others. It is called showing leadership. Getting countries like Egypt and Jordan to be on our side is something a world leader does. Going it alone is a weak approach.
  11. #691  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I do approve of Israel fighting back. There gets to a point where war helps the diplomacy, and there is another point where war hurts the diplomacy.
    I doubt Condi was in the Middle East to enjoy the weather. Surly diplomacy has taken place already (indeed it started before this war; ie. UN Security Council Resolution 1559 (2004), and the call for Hezbollah's disarmament).
    Thus far some of the behind-the-scene diplomacy's innuendoes I hear about are NATO's forces along the Israeli-Lebanese border (instead of sporadic UN posts), a continued call for Hezbollah's disarmament and honoring the above UN resolution, Egyptian-Jordanian-Saudi pressure on Syria and Iran to control Hezbollah.
    Most wars end with diplomacy and some resolutions, but it takes patience and time.
  12. #692  
    Condie's trip was more a show for the American public and the world that we are 'trying' to do something. In reality this problem has been neglected diplomatically by the Bush administration.
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    #693  
    If the mexicans decided to attack us, what tradition, what cultural heritage would enable them to claim this is a holy war?
    I never said the mexicans, I said a terrorist organization operating openly in mexico. Thats a huge difference.
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    #694  
    6 people including 3 children killed in Israel today by hezbollah rockets. Im wondering what time today the UN will convene to discuss condemnation of this attack.

    Even if it was Vetoed, it would be a great step foward for the UN to show its unbiased.
    Last edited by TomUps; 08/03/2006 at 09:48 AM.
  15. #695  
    This is b/c you cannot solve it diplomatically. The only thing you can do is kill terrorists. I've yet seen where a terrorist group gave up. You think America would do anything different if this happened just to our north or south? No way.

    Like the following comments...

    "Israel will never, ever allow anyone any more to attack Israel without response." Prime Minister Ehud Olmert

    "By the way, if Nasrallah is so courageous why doesn't he resurface? Why is he afraid even to feel the light of the sun. No one knows where he is. I am in my office and I have been to the northern part of Israel many times in the last few weeks and I am not hiding. Where exactly is Nasrallah, this big mouth? It shows how cowardly he is and how afraid he is to even surface."
    Prime Minister Ehud Olmert

    Olmert link

    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    In reality this problem has been neglected diplomatically by the Bush administration.
  16. NRG
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    #696  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    This is b/c you cannot solve it diplomatically. The only thing you can do is kill terrorists. I've yet seen where a terrorist group gave up. You think America would do anything different if this happened just to our north or south? No way.
    Um, this goes to show your lack of understanding of terrorism.
  17. #697  
    Yeah, didn't you ever see Boyz in the Hood?
  18. #698  
    Nothing leads to peace like a policy that every "Hizbulah member" must die.
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    #699  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Nothing leads to peace like a policy that every "Hizbulah member" must die.
    How bout the hezbollah policy that "every jew must die"
  20. #700  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    How bout the hezbollah policy that "every jew must die"
    Yeah, that's the point, it's a pretty stupid plan for peace. Luckily its one held only by extremists.

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