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  1. NRG
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    #661  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps

    Strange, you mention apartment buildings in Lebanon, but not apartment buildings in Israel being hit by rockets and missles.
    What the hell is this all about!!! What reason do you have to keep dragging this line out? We are discussing the fashion of the IDF's response, and what the issue of their response brings w/ it, more support for Hezbollah. You know that there is absolutley no comparsion between the numbers killed on each side. They (Israel) have the power to avert, mitagate, and lessen the civilian casualties. Hezbollah does have the power as well, but the Lebanese people do not!
    Last edited by NRG; 08/02/2006 at 03:42 PM.
  2. Micael's Avatar
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    #662  
    My understanding is (I know some have been covered):

    • Hezbollah are anti-semitic killers and want to demolish Israel.

    • Israel had already pulled back; it did nothing for them but make them more vulnerable.

    • For decades, Hezbollah's tactic is to attack from hospitals and neighborhoods and then to parade the dead innocents for the cameras when Israel retaliates. Hezbollah invented this tactic in the 1980s.

    • Just as it has failed numerous times in the past, detente will not work. Hezbollah isn't a country, its a group of terrorists. Could you imagine us sitting down for a relaxed discussion of issues with OBL?


    Am I wrong? If not, what the hell does the EU or the UN think they're going to accomplish with a cease fire?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. NRG
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    #663  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael
    My understanding is (I know some have been covered):

    • Hezbollah are anti-semitic killers and want to demolish Israel.

    • Israel had already pulled back; it did nothing for them but make them more vulnerable.

    • For decades, Hezbollah's tactic is to attack from hospitals and neighborhoods and then to parade the innocents that die when Israel retaliates for the cameras. Hezbollah invented this tactic in the 1980s.

    • Just as it has failed numerous times in the past, detente will not work. Hezbollah isn't a country, its a group of terrorists. Could you imagine us sitting down for a relaxed discussion of issues with OBL?


    Am I wrong? If not, what the hell does the EU or the UN think they're going to accomplish with a cease fire?
    I think is what they want is sometime to figure out the international force situation. Kinda like, let's pause and figure out a gameplan.
  4. TomUps's Avatar
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    #664  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    What the hell is this all about!!! What reason do you have to keep dragging this line out? We are discussing the fashion of the IDF's response, and what the issue of their response brings w/ it, more support for Hezbollah. You know that there is absolutley no comparsion between the numbers killed on each side. They have the power to avert, mitagate, lessen civilian casualties. Hezbollah does have the power as well, but the Lebanese people do not!
    Im discussing war tactics and military responses. You are discussing Israel aggressions. I dont think you have a monopoly on what we are allowed to discuss, so please stop your preaching.
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    #665  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I think is what they want is sometime to figure out the international force situation. Kinda like, let's pause and figure out a gameplan.
    So, If you were Israel, you would allow the enemy to re-arm, dig in and fortify positions, re-establish communications, and possible escape to fight again later?

    Not a very good idea...Maybe we should let al-qaida set up shop in Afghanistan again.
  6. NRG
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    #666  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Im discussing war tactics and military responses. You are discussing Israel aggressions. I dont think you have a monopoly on what we are allowed to discuss, so please stop your preaching.
    Then in the future please don't not quote me when you are starting a new discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Post #645
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Also, is military action helping or exacerbating the terror problem?
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUPS
    So Israel should do nothing when rockets fall on their cities and terrorists invade their borders? Why should one side be held to a higher moral standard than the other?
  7. NRG
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    #667  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    So, If you were Israel, you would allow the enemy to re-arm, dig in and fortify positions, re-establish communications, and possible escape to fight again later?

    Not a very good idea...Maybe we should let al-qaida set up shop in Afghanistan again.
    Getting desperate. Where does it say "I would'?
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    #668  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Then in the future please don't not quote me when you are starting a new discussion.
    Sorry NRG, you post here its fair game. If you cant take the heat..........
  9. NRG
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    #669  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Sorry NRG, you post here its fair game. If you cant take the heat..........
    So let's start again. Do you think the military actions taken thus far have helped diminish the Terrorists or has it created more support.
  10. TomUps's Avatar
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    #670  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Getting desperate. Where does it say "I would'?
    Is this your answer? If it is, I have no idea what you mean, or where you going.
  11. TomUps's Avatar
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    #671  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    So let's start again. Do you think the military actions taken thus far have helped diminish the Terrorists or has it created more support.
    I think it has softened up hezbollah positions and arms for the ground invasion we are seeing now.

    As for support for Israel, who cares. The muslim world will never, never side with Israel on anything over another muslim nation (or terrorist group). Most in the arab world are taught from birth about the evil jews and are subject to constant bombardment (whether it be tv programs, radio, news, text books, or religious leaders) about the jewish and american satans. The war for muslim hearts and minds is one that Israel will never win, the one for survival they will.

    Why dont we ask, how hezbollah invading Israel, and shooting rockets and missles at Israel is creating more support for Hezbollah among Israelis? Why is it always the other way around?
  12. NRG
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    #672  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    I think it has softened up hezbollah positions and arms for the ground invasion we are seeing now.
    A non answer? I must ask you, where did hezbollah come from, their reason for forming?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    As for support for Israel, who cares. The muslim world will never, never side with Israel on anything over .... (or terrorist group).
    I would disagree.



    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Why dont we ask, how hezbollah invading Israel, and shooting rockets and missles at Israel is creating more support for Hezbollah among Israelis? Why is it always the other way around?
    Because we already know Hezbollah is wrong, what gets me is Israel's careless response.
  13. #673  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Here they are:

    frist quote:
    And though long-range rockets will continue to be launched at Israel from central Lebanon, Israel can address that threat by surgical aerial attacks

    second quote:
    A triumphant Iran will be empowered to extend its influence into Lebanon and the Gulf, and to pitch Iraq into a full-scale civil war. Tehran, together with its allies in Damascus, can establish its primacy from the Arabian Sea to the Mediterranean.
    More like 3%...

    I agree with your first quote's disagreement.
    The second: I do think that "a triumphant Iran" will have a tremendous influence on Lebanon (it already has via Hezbollah-by-proxy), but I am not sure that Iran "can establish its primacy from the Arabian Sea to the Mediterranean." Maybe with nuke?

    Well that settles it: peace?
  14. #674  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    A non answer? I must ask you, where did hezbollah come from, their reason for forming?
    Hezbollah came to be because Syria invaded Lebanon and sat there for some 30+ years, chocking and dictating elections? (Sarcasm, yes. But, after all, that's why they showed up against Israel.)
    So perhaps a follow-up question should be: Why the Hezbollah did not fight the Syrians?
  15. #675  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    So, If you were Israel, you would allow the enemy to re-arm, dig in and fortify positions, re-establish communications, and possible escape to fight again later?
    I would love to see Hezbollah and Hamas neutralized, but continued fighting is what Hezbollah wants more than anything. Why should we help them by playing their game? Its stupid if you ask me.

    Its not tactical positions or digging in that is important to them, they roll around portable rocket launchers and blend in with sympathetic civilians. Its not communications, they just fire rockets at will, not in coordination.

    What does Hezbollah need? They need gun money, people to hide them, and a bigger recruiting base. In that regard, Hezbollah gets their funding from Iran, but Hezbollah must rely on the support of the local population to operate out of and recruit from.

    What is the best way to increase that support? Its having Al-Jezzerah network show dead arab women and children on arab TV. Its not the perception of our vulnerability by stopping fighting that makes Hezbollah supporters out of moderate arabs, it is the perception of our arrogance and disrepect we show by what they think is indiscriminate killing of their people.

    We do not need to win the hearts and minds of the American or Israeli people on this issue, it is what the people on the arab street think that makes a difference in this war. Every Arab terrorist group whether in Lebanon or Iraq knows that, but for some reason we just dont seem to get it.

    Maybe dead arab civilians do not mean a lot to some people here in the US, especially if we just imagine that they deserve it because they were sympathetic to our enemy. But they mean everything to the local Lebanese population.

    If we keep playing their game we just make them stronger. We kill a few civilians and they play it on Al-JAzeera (I think of it as the Fox news of the arab world) at infinitum and exaggerate what really happened to boot.

    Its a cowards game they play, but the bottom line is the more innocent civilians we kill trying to get them, the stronger they get. I do no begrudge Israel for defending themselves. But now is the time to ceasefire and re-tool.
  16. NRG
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    #676  
    Quote Originally Posted by impish
    Hezbollah came to be because Syria invaded Lebanon and sat there for some 30+ years, chocking and dictating elections? (Sarcasm, yes. But, after all, that's why they showed up against Israel.)
    So perhaps a follow-up question should be: Why the Hezbollah did not fight the Syrians?
    The hand that feeds you?
  17. NRG
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    #677  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I would love to see Hezbollah and Hamas neutralized, but continued fighting is what Hezbollah wants more than anything. Why should we help them by playing their game? Its stupid if you ask me.

    Its not tactical positions or digging in that is important to them, they roll around portable rocket launchers and blend in with sympathetic civilians. Its not communications, they just fire rockets at will, not in coordination.

    What does Hezbollah need? They need gun money, people to hide them, and a bigger recruiting base. In that regard, Hezbollah gets their funding from Iran, but Hezbollah must rely on the support of the local population to operate out of and recruit from.

    What is the best way to increase that support? Its having Al-Jezzerah network show dead arab women and children on arab TV. Its not the perception of our vulnerability by stopping fighting that makes Hezbollah supporters out of moderate arabs, it is the perception of our arrogance and disrepect we show by what they think is indiscriminate killing of their people.

    We do not need to win the hearts and minds of the American or Israeli people on this issue, it is what the people on the arab street think that makes a difference in this war. Every Arab terrorist group whether in Lebanon or Iraq knows that, but for some reason we just dont seem to get it.

    Maybe dead arab civilians do not mean a lot to some people here in the US, especially if we just imagine that they deserve it because they were sympathetic to our enemy. But they mean everything to the local Lebanese population.

    If we keep playing their game we just make them stronger. We kill a few civilians and they play it on Al-JAzeera (I think of it as the Fox news of the arab world) at infinitum and exaggerate what really happened to boot.

    Its a cowards game they play, but the bottom line is the more innocent civilians we kill trying to get them, the stronger they get. I do no begrudge Israel for defending themselves. But now is the time to ceasefire and re-tool.
  18. #678  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael
    Am I wrong? If not, what the hell does the EU or the UN think they're going to accomplish with a cease fire?
    Here's an arrogant response: The UN and the EU seem to have a very short memory.

    One needs to ask 1). Why Hezbollah came to power and 2). What Hezbollah wants.

    Answers:
    2). Hezbollah (Party of God), is a Shiite Islamist group that is fighting for the creation of an Islamic state in Lebanon (keep in mind that roughly 40% of Lebanese are Christians), while the EU and the UN seem to be OK with that.
    1). Although Syria left Lebanon reluctantly, this is some of the damage it has left behind:

    "Since the creation of contemporary Lebanon in 1920, most Syrians have never accepted modern Lebanon as a sovereign and independent state. The outbreak of the Lebanese Civil War in 1975 gave Damascus the opportunity to act on its belief that Lebanon and Syria are one.

    "By 1978, Damascus had switched sides, and was supporting a leftist coalition of Palestinians, Druze and Muslims against the Christians. Eventually, Syrian troops occupied two-thirds of Lebanon. Syria's deployment of surface-to-air missile batteries in Lebanon, and its policy of allowing the PLO and other terrorist groups to attack Israel from there, helped trigger the 1982 Lebanon War.

    "In 1982, Syrian agents murdered President-elect Bashir Gemayel, who wanted peace with Israel. Two years later, Syria forced President Amin Gemayel, Bashir's brother, to renege on a peace treaty he signed with Israel a year earlier.

    "Syria's activities were aimed not only at Israel, but also the West. In April 1983, Hizbullah terrorists, operating from Syrian-controlled territory, bombed the U.S. embassy in Beirut, killing 49 and wounding 120. Six months later, Hizbullah terrorists drove two trucks carrying explosives into the U.S. Marine and French military barracks near Beirut, killing 241 Americans and 56 French soldiers.

    "In 1985, Hizbullah operatives began kidnapping Westerners off the streets of Beirut and other Lebanese cities. From the beginning, it was clear the Syrians and their Iranian collaborators could order the release of the Western hostages any time. For example, when a Frenchman was kidnapped in August 1991, the Syrians demanded that he be freed. Within days, he was. Most of the hostages were held in the Bekaa Valley or the suburbs of Beirut. Both areas are controlled by Syria.
    "In October 1990, with the West's attention focused on Kuwait, Syrian troops stormed the Beirut stronghold of Christian insurgent Gen. Michel Aoun. Besides battle deaths, approximately 700 persons were massacred. With that blitzkrieg, Damascus wiped out the only remaining threat to its hegemony in Lebanon.

    "On May 22, 1991, Lebanese President Elias Hrawi traveled to Damascus to sign a "Treaty of Brotherhood, Cooperation and Coordination" with Syrian President Hafez Assad. The agreement states that Syria will ensure Lebanon's "sovereignty and independence," even though Damascus is being allowed to keep its occupation army in that country.
    "Despite Syria's involvement in peace talks with Israel, President Assad continued to support terrorism. Asked about his support for terrorist organizations like Hizbullah, Assad responded that they were really "patriots and militants who fight for the liberty and independence of their country...such people cannot be called terrorists" (Washington Post, July 31, 1991). Since his father's death in 2000, Assad's son and successor, Bahsar, has given no indication his views are any different." (From www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org)
    Last edited by impish; 08/02/2006 at 05:10 PM.
  19. #679  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    The hand that feeds you?
    Precisely. Which prompted my previous (albeit long) response to Micael's question.
  20. NRG
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    #680  
    Quote Originally Posted by impish
    Here's an arrogant response: The UN and the EU seem to have a very short memory.

    One needs to ask 1). Why Hezbollah came to power and 2). What Hezbollah wants.

    Answers:
    2). Hezbollah (Party of God), is a Shiite Islamist group that is fighting for the creation of an Islamic state in Lebanon (keep in mind that roughly 40% of Lebanese are Christians), while the EU and the UN seem to be OK with that.
    Didn't they abandon this goal?

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