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  1. #541  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Its the nature of the world that makes it a necessity. There are few countries in the world today where jewish people can live without facing overwhelming hatred, and violence...
    It reminds me of an article by Yossi Klein Halevi:

    "Three times in the last century, the Jewish people has found itself on the front line against totalitarian ideologies with aspirations to rule the world, and which defined the Jewish people as its primary obstacle in fulfilling that goal. For Nazism, the Jew was not only the source of racial impurity but inventor of conscience, crippling humanity's survival instincts in an amoral world. For Soviet communism, the Jew was the source of capitalism, and Zionism the front line of imperialism. And now, for fundamentalist Islam, the Jew is the satanic enemy, and the Jewish state an abomination against God that must be destroyed...

    "Nevertheless, some insist on distinguishing between Hezbollah and Hamas. While Hezbollah is an operational extension of the Shia Iranian revolution, Hamas, they argue, represents the national aspirations of the Palestinian people. In fact, Hamas represents the undoing of Palestinian national aspirations. For Hamas, a Palestinian state is merely a means to an end: the resurrection of the medieval Caliphate and the transformation of the Middle East into a single Islamist state."
  2. #542  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    The UN attack kinda reminds me of the USS Liberty incident.
    www.ussliberty.org
    Or KAMA ADO, Afghanistan, 2001 - (link)

    Or the wedding bombing in Kandahar, Afghanistan, 2002 - (link)

    And gosh knows how many examples exist in Iraq, Chechnya, Serbia...
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    #543  
    From MSNBC, this is one of the people Hezbollah wants released from Israeli prison before they will release the Israeli troops and agree to a ceasfire....

    "Samir Kuntar, a Lebanese Druse who took part in a terrorist attack on the town of Nahariya 27 years ago, before Hizbullah even existed. Kuntar, then 16 years old, was with a group that shot an Israeli civilian named Danny Haran in front of his 4-year-old daughter, then smashed the little girl's skull against a rock on the beach. Haran's wife, hiding in a crawl space with their 2-year-old, tried so desperately to keep the infant from screaming that the little one smothered to death."

    Would your release him? I wouldnt.
  4. #544  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Seriously, I fail to see how you can't find this to be anything other than cold-blooded murder?
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I am curious in your view of this tragedy, that is potentially an accident (unless you have solid proof other wise, other than since it was Israel they must be guilty) or possibly intentional (again no proof at this time)......vs the practices by Hezz that I stated in post 153?
    There is still obviously an ongoing investigation, but it looks at the moment that maybe those who jumped the gun to blame Isreal were wrong or on the wrong track with Isreal's motives.


    Hezbollah was using UN post as 'shield'
    Canadian United Nations observer wrote of militia's presence, 'necessity' of bombing

    The Ottawa Citizen
    Published: Thursday, July 27, 2006

    The words of a Canadian United Nations observer written just days before he was killed in an Israeli bombing of a UN post in Lebanon are evidence Hezbollah was using the post as a "shield" to fire rockets into Israel, says a former UN commander in Bosnia.

    Those words, written in an e-mail dated just nine days ago, offer a possible explanation as to why the post -- which according to UN officials was clearly marked and known to Israeli forces -- was hit by Israel on Tuesday night, said retired Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie yesterday.

    -----------------------------

    Just last week, Maj. Hess-von Kruedener wrote an e-mail about his experiences after nine months in the area, words Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie said are an obvious allusion to Hezbollah tactics.

    "What I can tell you is this," he wrote in an e-mail to CTV dated July 18. "We have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both (Israeli) artillery and aerial bombing.

    "The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters (sic) of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters (sic) from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but rather due to tactical necessity."


    Those words, particularly the last sentence, are not-so-veiled language indicating Israeli strikes were aimed at Hezbollah targets near the post, said Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie.

    "What that means is, in plain English, 'We've got Hezbollah fighters running around in our positions, taking our positions here and then using us for shields and then engaging the (Israeli Defence Forces)," he said.

    FULL STORY: http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/...fc6d50&k=55961
    This goes right in line with the same practices I listed in post 153.
  5. #545  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    There is still obviously an ongoing investigation, but it looks at the moment that maybe those who jumped the gun to blame Isreal were wrong or on the wrong track with Isreal's motives.


    Hezbollah was using UN post as 'shield'
    Canadian United Nations observer wrote of militia's presence, 'necessity' of bombing

    The Ottawa Citizen
    Published: Thursday, July 27, 2006



    This goes right in line with the same practices I listed in post 153.
    The "Shields" argument is getting really old.
    (edited to add) Soon they'll start saying they bombed themselves just like the Chinese try to say an activist beat himself up.

    These guys called the Israelis when they would get close to them with arti and tell them to back off.

    The bunker where they were sheltered was a concrete and steel structure requiriing a precision bombing.

    Now unless you're trying to say that hezbollah was in the bunker, that doesn't pan out.
    Last edited by daThomas; 07/27/2006 at 06:05 PM.
  6. #546  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    The "Shields" argument is getting really old.
    I agree.....the terrorist should stop using this tactic with schools with children, homes of civilians, UN posts, hospitals, mosques, etc.....with the full intention to get others killed!

    The reason this is significant is when the UN comes out with a statement like:
    At the time, there had been no Hezbollah activity reported in the area," he said. "So it was quite clear they were not going after other targets; that, for whatever reason, our position was being fired upon.
    And then is contradicted by one of their own at the facility that was bombed. That does start to raise questions as the investigation continues.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/27/2006 at 06:35 PM.
  7. NRG
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    #547  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I agree.....the terrorist should stop using this tactic with schools with children, homes of civilians, UN posts, hospitals, mosques, etc.....with the full intention to get others killed!

    And then is contradicted by one of their own at the facility that was bombed. That does start to raise questions as the investigation continues.
    Not saying they were not using the UN for shields, but, that email is nine days old.
  8. #548  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Not saying they were not using the UN for shields, but, that email is nine days old.
    If the whole question is why would Israel do it, I don't think they would do it on purpose. With all of the hatred in the world for Israel, they sure don't seem to hate everyone. When they took Egypt's Sinai after being attacked, Sadat essentially came to Israel years later and asked for peace and asked for their land back. Israel gave Sinai back.

    During Clinton administration he brokered a deal to give 97% of the West Bank and 3% of Israeli land for peace. It was refused.

    There will never be a land for peace deal, the only thing that can occur is a war to end the war.
  9. NRG
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    #549  
    Actual text of email discussed above.

    http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...60716/20060718
  10. NRG
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    #550  
    A little background on the paper that reported the 'Shields' story.


    Source: Wikipedia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CanWest_Global

    "CanWest is often cited as an example of how the ownership of Canadian media has become concentrated in the hands of a few individuals and large corporations. CanWest founder Izzy Asper was known as a strong supporter of both Canada's Liberal Party and Israel's right-wing Likud party, and of many laissez-faire policies in both countries."


    Editorial controversies:

    "The government of Israel and conflict in the Middle East. Veteran Montreal Gazette reporter Bill Marsden has said that the Aspers "do not want any criticism of Israel. We do not run in our newspaper op-ed pieces that express criticism of Israel and what it is doing." In 2004, the Reuters news agency protested after CanWest altered newswire stories about the Iraq war and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, such that Reuters felt it had inserted CanWest's own bias under Reuters bylines. The changes were apparently made in accordance with a CanWest policy to label certain groups as terrorists."

    CanWest...are the same folks that gave us the story about Iran requiring Jews to wear yellow armbands.
  11. #551  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    ...Kuntar, then 16 years old, was with a group that shot an Israeli civilian named Danny Haran in front of his 4-year-old daughter, then smashed the little girl's skull against a rock on the beach....

    Would your release him? I wouldnt.
    In the US he'd be executed.
  12. #552  
    Nah... You can kill up to 5 before any worry of execution in this country.
  13. #553  
    Even if they're your own. You know, it's not really your fault.
  14. #554  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Seriously, I fail to see how you can't find this to be anything other than cold-blooded murder?
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    The "Shields" argument is getting really old.
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    A little background on the paper that reported the 'Shields' story.
    Would a report from the UN directly be a better source that the UN recognized a month before this happend that Hiz was building and rebuilding positions around their post?

    REPORT OF THE SECRETARY-GENERAL ON THE UNITED NATIONS INTERIM FORCE IN LEBANON (FOR THE PERIOD FROM 21 JANUARY TO 18 JULY 2006)

    Publication date 7/20/2006

    28. Control of the Blue Line and its vicinity appears to have remained for the most part with Hizbollah. During the reporting period, Hizbollah maintained and reinforced a visible presence in the area, with permanent observation posts, temporary checkpoints and patrols. It continued to carry out intensive construction works to strengthen and expand some of its fixed positions, install additional technical equipment, such as cameras, establish new positions close to the Blue Line and build new access roads. These measures resulted in a more strategically laid out and fortified structure of Hizbollah’s deployment along the Blue Line. Some Hizbollah positions remained in close proximity to United Nations positions, especially in the Hula area, posing a significant security risk to United Nations personnel and equipment , as demonstrated during the heavy exchanges of fire on 28 May. In letters to the Foreign Minister, dated 23 March, 27 June and 5 July 2006, the Force Commander, General Pellegrini, expressed grave concern about the Hizbollah construction works in close proximity to United Nations positions and requested that the Government of Lebanon take necessary actions to rectify the situation. However, the situation remained unchanged despite repeated objections addressed by UNIFIL to the Lebanese authorities. UNIFIL observed the reconstruction of Hizbollah positions that were damaged or destroyed during the 28 May exchange of fire.

    Source: http://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/U...df?OpenElement
    The UN apparently recognized the possible danger of what actually did happen a month later. I would have thought the UN would have pulled their guys out before it became an after the fact issue.

    But...as I said earlier, the investigation goes on.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/28/2006 at 12:51 PM.
  15. NRG
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    #555  
    This still has to be asked. What difference does it make if they(Hezbollah) were near there(UN post)? Does it make it any more acceptable? NO, it doesn't. The people at the post made several calls to IDF, which apparently were ignored. Several hours of direct bombing of the post, several calls to IDF to stop, attacks on the UN post were still taking place when a rescue team was dispatched, no notice to inhabiants of the UN post of bombing. Many questions to be answered. Many, Many, questions.
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    #556  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    This still has to be asked. What difference does it make if they(Hezbollah) were near there(UN post)? Does it make it any more acceptable? NO, it doesn't. The people at the post made several calls to IDF, which apparently were ignored. Several hours of direct bombing of the post, several calls to IDF to stop, attacks on the UN post were still taking place when a rescue team was dispatched, no notice to inhabiants of the UN post of bombing. Many questions to be answered. Many, Many, questions.
    And I got to ask, why is everyone so caught up on an accidental incident in the middle of a warzone, without raising the question of why Hezbollah stated this war in the first place, what can be done to disarm this terrorist organization operating openly in Lebanon, why is hezbollah shooting Iranian made missles into Israeli cities right under the noses of these UN observers, and what if anything can prevent them from ever doing it again in the future.
  17. #557  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    And I got to ask, why is everyone so caught up on an accidental incident in the middle of a warzone...
    I don't think it was an accident. The IDF has nothing but utter disdain for UNIFIL.
  18. #558  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    There will never be a land for peace deal, the only thing that can occur is a war to end the war.
    What does this translate to please?
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    #559  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I don't think it was an accident. The IDF has nothing but utter disdain for UNIFIL.
    And I think the UN has nothing but disdain for Israel.
  20. #560  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    And I think the UN has nothing but disdain for Israel.
    Like an ex-girlfriend?

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