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  1. TomUps's Avatar
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    #501  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I have no love for hezbollah, they were supposedly elected so should be dealt with politically after a cease fire.
    My Goodness.......I think your being alittle to tough on them. They are after all a recognized terrorist organization.

    You do realize that Hezbollah is responsible for the suicide bombing of the marine barracks in Beirut in 1983 that killed 241 service men.

    You do realize the Hezbollah was behind the bombing of the US embassy in Beirut that killed over 60 people.

    You do realize that Hezbollah kidnapped, tortured and killed Marine Colonel William Higgins and the CIA Station Chief in Beirut William Buckly.

    You do realize Hezbollah was behind the hijack of TWA flight 847 from Athens to Italy that resulted in the murder of American Navy diver Roberth Stethem. Before he was shot in the head and dumped on the tarmac, his was beaten very bad. (the movie delta force was based on this)


    These were all American citizens and soldiers. do you have any remorse for any of Hezbollahs victims? How bout the new victims dying in Hezbollah rocket fire today.
  2. #502  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Must I state the obvious that 2 wrongs don't make a right. You have used this same type of arguement repeatedly in your posts and I beg you to stop.
    Since when two-wrongs-don't-make-it-right is an unacceptable form of debate? Are you making the rules here? This is too silly. In our previous discussion we have debated the "mistake" issue, and I have asked for *your* opinion. Here I am suggesting that Israel is wrong just as the US is (or any country, for that matter), while making it quite clear that "if indeed this was a deliberate attack, there's no excuse for it." Correct me if I am wrong but the Hezbollah never apologized for targeting civilians, have they?


    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I have no love for hezbollah, they were supposedly elected so should be dealt with politically after a cease fire.
    Well at least you don't love them...
    BTW, prior to 9/11, Hezbollah was responsible for killing more Americans than any other organization.

    I drew a distinction between (even) Hamas and the Hezbollah before. I have called for the creation of a Palestinian state next to Israel that will include the WB and the Gaza strip. I have agreed that the UN resolutions 242/338 be honored by Israel. And I have said that Israel's use of excessive force in Lebanon is counterproductive, and that the Lebanese civilian death-toll is unacceptable . But I do not agree with your willy-nilly approach to the Hezbollah, an organization that has taken the entire country of Lebanon hostage and has engaged in terror.
    Last edited by impish; 07/25/2006 at 09:56 PM.
  3. TomUps's Avatar
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    #503  
    Here are some comments from Hezbollahs leader. I found them doing a quick google search......

    "If they [the Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them world wide." Hassan Nasrallah, October 22, 2002.

    "The Jews invented the legend of the Nazi atrocities...Anyone who reads the Koran and the holy writings of the monotheistic religions sees what they did to the prophets, and what acts of madness and slaughter the Jews carried out throughout history... Anyone who reads these texts cannot think of co-existence with them, of peace with them, or about accepting their presence, not only in Palestine of 1948 but even in a small village in Palestine, because they are a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment."
    Hassan Nasrallah, October 22, 2002.

    You want Israel to "deal politically" with this? after a ceasfire to give them time to re-arm. Just amazing.
  4. #504  
    Quote Originally Posted by impish
    Since when two-wrongs-don't-make-it-right is an unacceptable form of debate?
    Never has been.
  5. #505  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Here are some comments from Hezbollahs leader. I found them doing a quick google search......

    "If they [the Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them world wide." Hassan Nasrallah, October 22, 2002.

    "The Jews invented the legend of the Nazi atrocities...Anyone who reads the Koran and the holy writings of the monotheistic religions sees what they did to the prophets, and what acts of madness and slaughter the Jews carried out throughout history... Anyone who reads these texts cannot think of co-existence with them, of peace with them, or about accepting their presence, not only in Palestine of 1948 but even in a small village in Palestine, because they are a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment."
    Hassan Nasrallah, October 22, 2002.

    You want Israel to "deal politically" with this? after a ceasfire to give them time to re-arm. Just amazing.

    Without condoning prior terrorist activities some groups/efforts have transitioned to legitimate/nonviolent political group. IE those responsible for the King David Hotel bombing or the IRA as examples.

    This however will not happen in the current situation if excessive force is used in response, particularly against innocent civilians. It will only create more hate for the bully.
  6. TomUps's Avatar
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    #506  
    wow DaT,
    your onesidedness is really evident with your last few posts. You constantly condemn almost every Israeli act in this war, yet the only thing you say about Hezbollah is "I have no love" for them. Nothing about them starting this war, nothing about killing innocent Israeli citizens. You also seem to imply it will be Israelis fault if Hezbollah doesn't transition to a legitamate form of government.
    I guess its our fault if al-qaeda doesn't become a legitamate political organization.
  7. #507  
    I'm seeing something like a half-dozen posts in the last page or two that amount to little more than setting up the other user's position as a kind of straw man. How about we all give each other a little more credit and go after each other a little less, eh?

    Somebody mentioned the fat lady singing for the thread. It feels like she's definitely rehearsing right now. :O
  8. #508  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Without condoning prior terrorist activities some groups/efforts have transitioned to legitimate/nonviolent political group. IE those responsible for the King David Hotel bombing or the IRA as examples.

    This however will not happen in the current situation if excessive force is used in response, particularly against innocent civilians. It will only create more hate for the bully.
    Precisely the point(s) I have been trying to make regarding the Hezbollah (my previous post, especially).
    The KD Hotel bombing and, to some extent, the IRA's early terror, were based on political ideologies deeply rooted in historical facts. The Hezbollah represents Iranian aggression that has one conclusion: To sabotage any chance for peace in the Middle East. The Hezbollah has *no* roots in Lebanon and they don't fight for a cause. I have also mentioned Hamas in my previous post to point out that once that organization recognizes Israel's right to exist (accepts UNR 242) it will improve its chances for negotiation and consequently for peace. But Hezbollah is different.
  9. Postal's Avatar
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    #509  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    < < this post no longer relevant given earlier moderation. Hopefully this thread's fixed up now. > >
    Well done.
  10. #510  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus
    Somebody mentioned the fat lady singing for the thread. It feels like she's definitely rehearsing right now. :O
    I did, and I want the full credit for it.....
  11. #511  
    Quote Originally Posted by impish
    Precisely the point(s) I have been trying to make regarding the Hezbollah (my previous post, especially).
    The KD Hotel bombing and, to some extent, the IRA's early terror, were based on political ideologies deeply rooted in historical facts. The Hezbollah represents Iranian aggression that has one conclusion: To sabotage any chance for peace in the Middle East. The Hezbollah has *no* roots in Lebanon and they don't fight for a cause. I have also mentioned Hamas in my previous post to point out that once that organization recognizes Israel's right to exist (accepts UNR 242) it will improve its chances for negotiation and consequently for peace. But Hezbollah is different.
    I can lean this way.
  12. #512  
    Heard of US evacuees from Lebanon walking miles to the Embassy for passage out. They asked the UN for help getting to the embassy, but were turned down. Thanks UN, for nothing.
    "Everybody Palm!"

    Palm III/IIIC, Palm Vx, Verizon: Treo 650, Centro, Pre+.
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  13. #513  
    I must admit I have not read this whole thread, but at least a majority of it, so if this was already posted, please forgive me.

    I have seen a lot of concern about the Lebanese civilian casualties, and rightly so as civilian causalities should always be minimized with the most extreme measures possible to prevent this. But which side is trying to prevent this and what side is actively trying to create civilian causalities?

    While on the road the last couple days I listened to a lot of Sat Radio. I heard an interview with an Ambassador from Israel to.....the UN??....I think it was on CNN (or maybe MSNBC). The interviewer was very direct in his questions about the civilian deaths in Lebanon. Here are some of his answers:
    • They have found that Hezbollah has converted civilian residences, i.e. apartments, etc... with special rooms that missiles can be launched from. While the family is still living there. Now, if there is a war going on, and one side uses converted rooms civilian homes as launch pads for rockets, and the civilians are killed when that launch bad is taken out......who is responsible for the civilian deaths?
    • Hezbollah will travel to a Christian neighborhood at night when the missiles are easily detected from where they launched from, and launch a missile against an Israel city and run away as fast as they can in the hopes that Israel will bomb where the rocket launched from, killing innocent civilians. I have heard this from several sources. Hezbollah knowingly trying to create targets in innocent civilian areas during a time of war.
    • Hezbollah will fly their flag on buildings that are not associated with Hezbollah in an attempt to confuse an Israel pilot, ground laser bomb director, soldier, etc... into attacking a civilian target. Don't know if they ploy has actually worked, but again, Hezbollah knowingly trying to create targets in innocent civilian areas during a time of war.
    • It is hard sometimes to count civilian casualties vs Hezbollah kills. For example a Father of a family can launch a missile as a Hezbollah member, then jump in the car with his family, now as a civilian, with other civilians, his family. If Hezbollah tries to fight a war among civilians, dressed like civilians, launch rockets against Israeli cities among civilians, both Hezbollah and civilians are going to get killed, and it is sometimes hard to tell them apart before and after they are killed.
    • Israel has willingly given up the possibility of killing many Hezbollah leaders and members as they drop fliers warning when and where they are going to attack to give the civilians....and in turn Hezbollah members as leaders.....a chance to evacuate before that happens. Did Hezbollah give any warnings it was going to attack areas with possible civilian casualties?
    • Hezbollah will target an Israeli city. They know that Israel medical and rescue teams will arrive on the scene within minutes. They keep the same aim on the rocket, wait 10 minutes and launch a second missile at the same location with the full intention to kill civilians trying to rescue civilians. What would the world's response be if Israel followed this same strategy that is used against them?
    • There were some other points but cannot remember them off hand.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/26/2006 at 01:14 PM.
  14. #514  
    Quote Originally Posted by duanedude1
    Heard of US evacuees from Lebanon walking miles to the Embassy for passage out. They asked the UN for help getting to the embassy, but were turned down. Thanks UN, for nothing.
    Cite please.
  15. #515  
    This just stinks more and more:


    How UN Lebanon post was bombed

    According to diplomats familiar with the UN's initial report into the incident, the post in the town of Khiam was hit by precision-guided munition, says the BBC's Paul Adams in Jerusalem.

    The report says there was fierce fighting in the area for about six hours before the post was hit, during which time UN personnel contacted the Israel military 10 times, urging them to stop firing.

    Our correspondent says the UN claims that after each call, it was assured the firing would stop.

    The Irish foreign ministry said one of its officers in the UN's Unifil peacekeeping force in south Lebanon, placed six warning calls to the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) prior to the attack.

    "On six separate occasions he was in contact with the Israelis to warn them that their bombardment was endangering the lives of UN staff in South Lebanon," Reuters news agency quoted an unnamed foreign office spokesman as saying.

    "He warned: 'You have to address this problem or lives may be lost'," the spokesman said.

    The Associated Press news agency named the officer as Lt Col John Molloy.

    The bomb which killed the unarmed peacekeepers - Canadian, Austrian, Finnish and Chinese soldiers - hit the building and shelter of the observation post, near the eastern end of the Lebanese-Israeli border, UN spokesman Milos Struger said.

    Israel has launched an investigation.

    The UN post was on high ground, in an area once occupied by Israel.


    ========================


    'They must have known what they were doing'

    ABOUT 20 shells fell in or close to a UN base in south Lebanon before an Israeli aerial bomb penetrated the bunker killing all four foreign observers sheltering there, according to a UN military source.

    The source told The Age protests had been made repeatedly to Israel during the course of shelling that preceded the fatal bombing.

    The pattern of the fire made it clear that it came from the Israelis, he said, and only Israel possesses weapons heavy enough to penetrate the fortified bunker protecting the four observers.

    The only thing in doubt was how or why an Israeli aircraft came to bomb a clearly marked UN position that should have been exempt from attack.

    "This position has been there for twenty years. Israel knows these positions and they have had two weeks to zero in on this area and register targets and where you don't want to hit. That's standard behaviour," the UN source said.

    "They (the bunkers) are big white things you can see them for miles and they are lit up at night. Even if the Israelis just arrived cold from the moon two weeks ago, they have been firing there in that area regularly for two weeks. If you keep firing all afternoon into a position like that, then ultimately something will go wrong."

    The UN south Lebanon mission was the first ever peacekeeping mission, set up in 1948 to monitor ceasefire lines between Egypt, Lebanon and Syria and the new state of Israel.

    The base at Khiam was one of four observation posts along the Lebanon-Israeli border, two of which are currently closed because of earlier incidents. They are typically manned by teams of four, who patrol in clearly marked UN vehicles.

    In Lebanon, the organisation works in close co-operation with Unifil, a larger armed force introduced following Israel's 1978 invasion of Lebanon.

    Relations between the Israeli Defence Force and the UN missions have traditionally been strained. Many Israelis regard the UN with hostility, and accuse it of siding with their enemies.
    Last edited by daThomas; 07/26/2006 at 02:13 PM.
  16.    #516  
    Maybe it was considered payback for sitting there for years and doing nothing while Hizbullah moved in all around them.
  17. #517  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Maybe it was considered payback for sitting there for years and doing nothing while Hizbullah moved in all around them.
    Please feel free to share your snark with the 4 families of the dead men.
  18.    #518  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Please feel free to share your snark with the 4 families of the dead men.
    I'm sorry, were they not aware they were in a war zone?
  19. #519  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    I'm sorry, were they not aware they were in a war zone?
    Seriously, I fail to see how you can't find this to be anything other than cold-blooded murder?
  20.    #520  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Seriously, I fail to see how you can't find this to be anything other than cold-blooded murder?
    Again, I don't think anyone of us knows at this point why it happened.

    But, since we're on the topic, what were they doing all of those years?

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