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  1. NRG
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    #441  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    No they don't care if they take any human life, regardless of sex, age, civilian status.
    We could use this argument
    on both sides of the coin.
  2. #442  
    Like Americans, Israelis cherish every human soldier's life. This is a war, they have every right to target buildings with missiles on them regardless who else lives there.

    If I lived with my family in an apartment in Lebanon and there was a 23 foot missile in the courtyard, you can believe me when I say I would move.

    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    But, ATM, that would be the whole jist of putting a force on the ground. Hezbollah would be forced w/ 2 options, and 2 options only, 1) Do nothing and have their supply line servered, or 2) Come out of the major civilian areas to try and stop their supply line from being severed. We would hope they would choose the latter. I can guarantee if they went the later route it would be like Poland's cavalry going against tanks.
  3. #443  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Tom, that does address my question to you. How accurate are these weapons of hezbollah?
    Accuracy might be of relevance in this discussion until one of the two things is to happen, NRG. The first (and Hezbollah is very close to it), the warheads on top of those rockets fired towards Israel are to get so large and potent that accuracy will be of (much) less significant. And two that the Hezbollah will acquire nuke-capable warheads from Iran (and indeed this is the perill-of-the-matter!). We can all wait a few years for Iran to materialize its nuke dream and see what will happen. But rest assure that if indeed a terrorist organization such as Hezbollah gets nuke-warheads, accuracy will be the last thing you’d be thinking about!
    Last edited by impish; 07/25/2006 at 12:09 PM.
  4. NRG
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    #444  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    The problem with any cease-fire without a permanent plan is that Hezbollah will use that cease fire to rearm and re-fortify. A mulitnational force will only work if this force is willing to fire back when Hezbollah fires at them. Im not sure Hezbollah will accept any foriegn forces in Lebanon.
    Where did I mention a cease fire, I haven't mentioned that yet. There will be no way they would even consider a cease as long as they are getting supplied.
  5. #445  
    I don't see how you can.

    Israel drops leaflets (debatable on how often)

    Has pinpoint accuracy with bombs and missiles.

    Targeting institutions (i.e. banks) and buildings that specificly house terrorists or munitions. Do you realize some of their bunkers are literally under apartment buildings and civilian parking garages?


    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    We could use this argument
    on both sides of the coin.
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    #446  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Where did I mention a cease fire, I haven't mentioned that yet. There will be no way they would even consider a cease as long as they are getting supplied.
    You didnt mention it. As for getting resupplied, bottomline is it will be next to impossible to prevent Lebanon from recieving new arms from syria as their borders are very large. I guess Israel would have to occupy and control the entire border, and thats not going to happen. And, it still doesnt address the thousands of rockets and missles Hezbollah still has.
  7. NRG
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    #447  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    This is a war, they have every right to target buildings with missiles on them regardless who else lives there.
    No, this is not true, that would be called 'collective punishment'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    If I lived with my family in an apartment in Lebanon and there was a 23 foot missile in the courtyard, you can believe me when I say I would move.
    23 feet? I think you are confused. The Katyusha is really only about 4-5 feet. With such a small weapon, you might, never know they are there.
  8. #448  
    For the sake of my family, I would make it my business to know - or maybe move if I heard one from the floor above. Believe me they do know, they are blinded by Islamist Facism.

    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    No, this is not true, that would be called 'collective punishment'.

    23 feet? I think you are confused. The Katyusha is really only about 4-5 feet. With such a small weapon, you might, never know they are there.
  9. NRG
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    #449  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    You didnt mention it. As for getting resupplied, bottomline is it will be next to impossible to prevent Lebanon from recieving new arms from syria as their borders are very large. I guess Israel would have to occupy and control the entire border,
    Correct!
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    and thats not going to happen.
    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    And, it still doesnt address the thousands of rockets and missles Hezbollah still has.
    Earlier I had mentioned a commando force. There is going to be a lot more to my plan.
  10. NRG
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    #450  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    For the sake of my family, I would make it my business to know - or maybe move if I heard one from the floor above. Believe me they do know, they are blinded by Islamist Fascism.
    What if you are on first floor of a 20 story building? No, matter anyways. I think the IDF had mentioned, they strike within minutes of a launch. Just for the reason I pointed out earlier that it does only take a few minutes setup/disassemble.
  11. #451  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Impish, I agreed with your original statement. < < Edited by Septimus: Here's a dog metaphor: let sleeping dogs lie. Please help keep this thread on track. > >
    < < note: this winky-face wasn't a response to my hilariously clever edit in the quote above, but I'd like to think it still applies. --Septimus > >
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    #452  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Why?
    Well, that would have to be a full occupation then that would require thousands of troops spread pretty wide over the length of Lebanon. They would have to contain the flow of ALL goods into Lebanon while dealing with the constant attacks that they will definately meet with from Hezbollah. Thats a pretty huge task for the Israeli army that still (as always) must defend their country from the constant threat of invasion by other Arab countries.


    Earlier I had mentioned a commando force. There is going to be a lot more to my plan
    Not an easy task for commandos to have to go into urban areas where Hezbollah blends in with civilians. Your certainly opening up the possibility of tremendous casualties on your side because you have to prevent civilian casualties on the other side. This plays right into Hezbollahs hand.

    Atleast you are coming up with ideas though.
  13. NRG
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    #453  
    Quote Originally Posted by impish
    Accuracy might be of relevance in this discussion until one of the two things is to happen, NRG.
    It is of relevance, NOW.

    Quote Originally Posted by impish
    The first (and Hezbollah is very close to it), the warheads on top of those rockets fired towards Israel are to get so large and potent that accuracy will be of (much) less significant.
    How big do think these rockets are? You can only carry so much payload.

    Quote Originally Posted by impish
    And two that the Hezbollah will acquire nuke-capable warheads from Iran (and indeed this is the perill-of-the-matter!). We can all wait a few years for Iran to materialize its nuke dream and see what will happen. But rest assure that if indeed a terrorist organization such as Hezbollah gets nuke-warheads, accuracy will be the last thing you’d be thinking about!
    Agreed, if and when they acquire nukes. But we are discussing 'Here' and 'Now'.

    Also, try and refrain from calling me pal.
    Last edited by NRG; 07/25/2006 at 12:58 PM.
  14. NRG
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    #454  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Well, that would have to be a full occupation then that would require thousands of troops spread pretty wide over the length of Lebanon.
    I agree, it would take some manpower, but there is also drone patrols, apache helicopters, etc. to help in the patroling.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    They would have to contain the flow of ALL goods into Lebanon while dealing with the constant attacks that they will definately meet with from Hezbollah.
    Checkpoints.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Thats a pretty huge task for the Israeli army that still (as always) must defend their country from the constant threat of invasion by other Arab countries.
    I think I addressed this above.



    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Not an easy task for commandos to have to go into urban areas where Hezbollah blends in with civilians. Your certainly opening up the possibility of tremendous casualties on your side because you have to prevent civilian casualties on the other side.
    They are going to be doing this in SoLebanon anyways, so what is the difference? With what I have offered, sealing the border, they would have no choice but to come out of civilian areas to defend their supply line. As far as casualties go, I think the Israeli army would kick the snot out of the guys carrying AKs.


    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Atleast you are coming up with ideas though.
    Thanks.
    Last edited by NRG; 07/25/2006 at 12:57 PM.
  15. NRG
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    #455  
    I guess lunchtime is over.
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    #456  
    I agree, it would take some manpower, but there is also drone patrols, apache helicopters, etc. to help in the patroling.
    It would take a massive occupation. Imagine what the rest of the Arab world would feel about Israel occupying another Arab country.
  17. NRG
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    #457  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    It would take a massive occupation. Imagine what the rest of the Arab world would feel about Israel occupying another Arab country.
    I really don't think it would take a massive occupation. And another point, think about how the Arab countries feel about all the civilians being killed.
  18. #458  
    Interesting editorial:

    Hunker Down With History

    By Richard Cohen
    Tuesday, July 18, 2006; A19

    The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself is a mistake. It is an honest mistake, a well-intentioned mistake, a mistake for which no one is culpable, but the idea of creating a nation of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims (and some Christians) has produced a century of warfare and terrorism of the sort we are seeing now. Israel fights Hezbollah in the north and Hamas in the south, but its most formidable enemy is history itself.

    This is why the Israeli-Arab war, now transformed into the Israeli-Muslim war (Iran is not an Arab state), persists and widens. It is why the conflict mutates and festers. It is why Israel is now fighting an organization, Hezbollah, that did not exist 30 years ago and why Hezbollah is being supported by a nation, Iran, that was once a tacit ally of Israel's. The underlying, subterranean hatred of the Jewish state in the Islamic world just keeps bubbling to the surface. The leaders of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and some other Arab countries may condemn Hezbollah, but I doubt the proverbial man in their street shares that view.

    There is no point in condemning Hezbollah. Zealots are not amenable to reason. And there's not much point, either, in condemning Hamas. It is a fetid, anti-Semitic outfit whose organizing principle is hatred of Israel. There is, though, a point in cautioning Israel to exercise restraint -- not for the sake of its enemies but for itself. Whatever happens, Israel must not use its military might to win back what it has already chosen to lose: the buffer zone in southern Lebanon and the Gaza Strip itself.

    Hard-line critics of Ariel Sharon, the now-comatose Israeli leader who initiated the pullout from Gaza, always said this would happen: Gaza would become a terrorist haven. They said that the moderate Palestinian Authority would not be able to control the militants and that Gaza would be used to fire rockets into Israel and to launch terrorist raids. This is precisely what has happened.

    It is also true, as some critics warned, that Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon was seen by its enemies -- and claimed by Hezbollah -- as a defeat for the mighty Jewish state. Hezbollah took credit for this, as well it should. Its persistent attacks bled Israel. In the end, Israel got out and the United Nations promised it a secure border. The Lebanese army would see to that. (And the check is in the mail.)

    All that the critics warned has come true. But worse than what is happening now would be a retaking of those territories. That would put Israel smack back to where it was, subjugating a restless, angry population and having the world look on as it committed the inevitable sins of an occupying power. The smart choice is to pull back to defensible -- but hardly impervious -- borders. That includes getting out of most of the West Bank -- and waiting (and hoping) that history will get distracted and move on to something else. This will take some time, and in the meantime terrorism and rocket attacks will continue.

    In his forthcoming book, "The War of the World," the admirably readable British historian Niall Ferguson devotes considerable space to the horrific history of the Jews in 19th- and 20th-century Europe. Never mind the Holocaust. In 1905 there were pogroms in 660 different places in Russia, and more than 800 Jews were killed -- all this in a period of less than two weeks. This was the reality of life for many of Europe's Jews.

    Little wonder so many of them emigrated to the United States, Canada, Argentina or South Africa. Little wonder others embraced the dream of Zionism and went to Palestine, first a colony of Turkey and later of Britain. They were in effect running for their lives. Most of those who remained -- 97.5 percent of Poland's Jews, for instance -- were murdered in the Holocaust.

    Another gifted British historian, Tony Judt, wraps up his recent book "Postwar" with an epilogue on how the sine qua non of the modern civilized state is recognition of the Holocaust. Much of the Islamic world, notably Iran under its Holocaust-denying president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, stands outside that circle, refusing to make even a little space for the Jews of Europe and, later, those from the Islamic world. They see Israel not as a mistake but as a crime. Until they change their view, the longest war of the 20th century will persist deep into the 21st. It is best for Israel to hunker down.
  19. #459  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    It is of relevance, NOW.

    How big do think these rockets are? You can only carry so much payload.

    Agreed, if and when they acquire nukes. But we are discussing 'Here' and 'Now'.

    Also, try and refrain from calling me pal.

    Firstly, if ONE rocket causes ONE casualty -- that is one casualty too many. And yes, I think it is utterly disgusting that so many civilians have to die!

    Second, how can a discussion about “here” and “now” (besides, who agreed on this “here-now” format anyway?), take place without long-term thinking? This entire war is based on future consequences.

    Third, the “pal” comment was done via private message, but that was the last of it.
  20. NRG
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    #460  
    Quote Originally Posted by impish
    Firstly, if ONE rocket causes ONE casualty -- that is one casualty too many. And yes, I think it is utterly disgusting that so many civilians have to die!
    Then how civilian deaths in Lebanon are too many?

    Quote Originally Posted by impish
    Second, how can a discussion about “here” and “now” (besides, who agreed on this “here-now” format anyway?), take place without long-term thinking? This entire war is based on future consequences.
    I have been trying to give my solutions to minimize civilian casualities, not shelter hezbollah. I have the feeling some you do not understand terrorisms roots, in otherwords it's reason for being, without that understanding you won't defeat it. Put, simply, you can not beat terrorism using a military approach, all that does is make more little terrorists.

    I was under the understanding that this war was about captured/kipnapped soldiers, or at least that is what Israel would lead us to believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by impish
    Third, the “pal” comment was done via private message, but that was the last of it.
    Thank you. I may have misread it, but the tone seemed...... well you know.

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