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  1. #381  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    In other words the civilians should pay for Hezbollah's aggression since they did not stand up to Hezbollah?

    With what were they to do? Any kinda action such as what you have stated, from my understanding, would have tipped off a civil in a new fledgling democracy.

    See above. Plus no to mention there was/is 2000 UN troops in southren Lebanon, trying to disarm Hezbollah. Also, a side note, Israel was in there for 18 years and it also was not able to disarm Hezzbollah. So what would you expect Lebanon to do?

    This is the issue that gets me upset. All these folks are not Hezbollah or hezbollah supporters. You are advocating 'collective punishment' call it what you will but it is 'collective punishment'. You can put lipstick on the pig, but in the end it is still a pig. Make NO mistake collective punishment is illegal by international law. Period.

    What double standard do you speak of.
    So basically you see NO solution to this problem in the way it has been handled in the past but you find fault with what Israel is doing now. Just exactly what was Israel supposed to do then?

    "I don't think you should do what you are doing but I have NO idea what to suggest you do INSTEAD to solve this problem."

    There are collective responsibilities that go with living in society. Just ask Germany and Japan after WWII. Many, many MORE civilians were killed in that war.

    Innocent people are GOING to die as long as there are evil people bent on doing evil deeds. And innocent people are going to die when some try to stop evil people from doing evil deeds that kill innocent people. Which of those two "options" are you advocating? There is no third alternative. BTW, the common element in both scenareos is "innocent people are going to die."

    Sad... but true.
  2. TomUps's Avatar
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    #382  
    That is referred to as 'collective punishment' Tom.
    totally disagree, this is called War. A Deadly war where you are holding one side responsible for innocent deaths but not the other. Im not to sure why you find it hard to understand that Hezbollah stores it weapons, has it offices, hides it soldiers, and fire its rockets from inside civilian areas. Since this is a war, Israel is trying to kill the enemy, before the enemy kills them. Because Hezbollah is operating out of civilian areas, civilians are going to sadly die. Civilians that would still be alive if Hezbollah didnt start this whole thing. 362 dead Lebanese, all killed by Hezbollah actions.

    You are advocating 'collective punishment' call it what you will but it is 'collective punishment'.
    I call it trying to kill the enemy that unfortunately operates out of a civilian area. If Hezbollah was so concerened for the saftey of Lebonese civilians, maybe they would move their bases of operation outside of civilian areas, and better yet, maybe they would not have started this whole war.


    The double standard that we are seeing in world reaction to this situation is breathtaking.
    I agree, it is truely amazing, but not unexpected.

    In other words the civilians should pay for Hezbollah's aggression since they did not stand up to Hezbollah?
    So then Israeli citizens should pay, beacuse Israel cant defend itself because Lebanese civilians might suffer?

    Plus no to mention there was/is 2000 UN troops in southren Lebanon, trying to disarm Hezbollah.
    Hah, now thats funny.
    Last edited by TomUps; 07/23/2006 at 12:00 AM.
  3. #383  
    NRG, you haven't answered my questions so I am resubmitting them here:
    Quote Originally Posted by impish
    OK then: How would *you* fight Hezbollah (knowing that they hide/live among civilians as a shield)?
    If Hezbollah should not be allowed to roam free how would *you* take care of it?
  4. NRG
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    #384  
    Impish & Tom I am out drinking some beers right now. But, when I get back, I will try and (edit), address both you on Sunday/Monday. The Treo kinda limits the time I want to spend typing.

    Cheers
    Last edited by NRG; 07/23/2006 at 09:58 PM.
  5. #385  
    NRG, since you asked me to point you in the direction of suffering in Israel, and making you happy is essential(!), here's a photo with a "light" touch to it. This man's house in the town of Nesher lost his house to Hezbollah's rocket but the piano was still working...

    Last edited by impish; 07/23/2006 at 03:29 PM.
  6. TomUps's Avatar
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    #386  
    This story from CNN sums up what Hezbollah does for the cameras...Ofcourse the world buys it.
    http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/ande...oper.360/blog/
    Last edited by TomUps; 07/23/2006 at 07:57 PM.
  7. NRG
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    #387  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    This story from CNN sums up what Hezbollah does for the cameras...Ofcourse the world buys it.
    http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/ande...oper.360/blog/
    Just wanted to bring a little bit to the surface.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps Article
    12:30 p.m.: We're now driving through a neighborhood that hasn't seen any bombing, but it's here we're told we can talk to some residents. Hezbollah guy takes us down to what amounts to a crude bomb shelter and tells us the people here live on this street but are afraid to sleep in their apartment. The concrete room is dimly lit and dank. Two people on plastic chairs are watching an Arabic news channel. One sits in the corner yelling angry epithets about Israel for the reporters. We wait for the media gaggle to leave, then introduce ourselves. They tell us they're a mother, her son and his wife. There's no way to know if it's true. The conversation follows a familiar pattern:

    "Are you scared?"

    "No!"

    "Will you fight?"

    "To the death!"

    "Do you hate Israel?"

    "Of course, and its mother America!"

    We thank them for their insights and move back up to the street.

    12:44 p.m.: We're back on the street and on cue, a Hezbollah resistance song is now blaring from an apartment. A young man on the porch dressed in black is giving us the victory sign. I look behind me and there's our Hezbollah guide encouraging the young man to lift his hands higher so our camera can see.

    12:50 p.m.: Anderson is doing a few more stand-ups about our story that's quickly become less about Hezbollah and more about their crude propaganda machine when the "family" emerges from the bunker behind us and joins their friends in the street. They're laughing, talking loudly, and gesturing with their hands, mocking anger. I really should learn Arabic. Anderson does another stand-up about the group now standing behind us.

    12:55 p.m.: We pile into our van and are now driving out of the Hezbollah-controlled neighborhood. It feels like we've just left a haunted house: Slightly frightening at first, but ridiculous by the end.
  8. #388  
    NRG (and others, in this case): You still haven't answered my question (post #369).
    Here's a dilemma I see developing (and please keep in mind that I *strongly* believe in peace, and I *strongly* urge Israel to sit down with the PA and broker a peace agreement in which a viable Palestinian state will be created in the *enire* WB and Gaza). The dilemma is what to do with Hezbollah? The Lebanese don't want the Hezbollah in their country (thus creating a de facto state-within-a-state). In fact very few in the Arab conglomerate want anything to do with this organization. Yet no one wants to do anything about it. Meanwhile the Hezbollah gets stronger and more provocative and (yes!) more dangerous to the Middle East's stability. So what to do? *You* tell me, I am listening. (Keep in mind that UN resolutions do exist that call for the Hezbollah to disarm, so please don't suggest that.)
    Last edited by impish; 07/24/2006 at 03:12 PM.
  9. #389  
    A good article:



    Mideast: Many Questions, Few Answers
    Charles Wolfson: Making Peace Between A State And A Terrorist Group Isn't Easy

    John Bolton, the Bush administration's ambassador to the United Nations, hit the nail on the head: "I want someone to address the problem (of) how you get a cease-fire with a terrorist organization." That is only the first of many questions on the agenda of the international community as diplomats try to bring peace out of war in Lebanon and Israel. No one has a ready answer.

    ---------------------

    In the meantime, the Bush administration refuses to seriously press its ally to halt its bombing and shelling in Lebanon, since Hezbollah still has the ability to inflict serious damage on Israel.

    ----------------------

    In the past Damascus was always an address American diplomats could call on to ask the Syrians to use their leverage, but that is no longer the case. And talking to leaders of Hezbollah or Hamas which continues to battle Israelis in Gaza is out of the question as well, because the United States, by law, does not negotiate with groups it has labeled terrorist organizations.

    Lebanon, from whose territory Hezbollah operates, is too weak to stop Hezbollah. In short, there is nowhere that Rice and the Israelis can go to directly deal with Hezbollah.

    -------------------------

    Martin Indyk, a former assistant Secretary of State for the Near East and a former ambassador to Israel, cautions against Rice traveling to the region now. "She shouldn't go until she has a way of getting Hezbollah to stop (its shelling) ... She can get Israel to stop but the problem is Hezbollah," Indyk says. If she does go to the region, he says, and "if she leaves the region and rockets keep falling, her mission is a failure."


    -----------------------

    How the international community brings about long-lasting calm in Southern Lebanon prompts other questions.
    • Does the U.N. beef up its existing UNIFIL mission?
    • Should a new, armed mission of international troops be inserted into the area to keep the peace?
    • Who would provide those troops and how fast could they get there?
    • Even if such a force is inserted and keeps a wide buffer zone, what is to prevent Hezbollah from launching its long range rockets over the territory and into Northern Israel?
    • And there are more questions. What can be done with Hamas and the Palestinians in Gaza, a force Israel also has to deal with militarily but, like the United States, refuses to deal with politically (in some cases due to US law preventing negotiations with terrorists).

    Israel claims that it is fighting Hezbollah as part of the global war on terrorism, and that's the main reason the Bush administration supports its continued effort. If Hezbollah's military capability is degraded sufficiently, it is not only less of a threat to Israel, but also to the rest of the international community and that would not make anyone in Washington unhappy.

    Washington's hope is that others who deal with Damascus and Tehran will use their influence to get those governments to use their leverage to force Hezbollah to stop. Until that happens, Israel can be expected to maintain its military operations to reduce Hezbollah's military capabilities..........................

    In Martin Indyk's phrase, the Bush administration is "caught between our need for stability and our heart for democracy."

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1822044.shtml
  10. NRG
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    #390  
    Quote Originally Posted by impish
    NRG (and others, in this case): You still haven't answered my question (post #369).
    My first step would have been for Israel to seal the border of Syria/Lebanon. There by cutting off hezbollah of any outside support.
  11. #391  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    My first step would have been for Israel to seal the border of Syria/Lebanon. There by cutting off hezbollah of any outside support.
    Supplies are also flown in and shipped in. Are advocating occupation? Don't think Israel wants to do that. Best thing to do is to obliterate the terrorists.
  12.    #392  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    My first step would have been for Israel to seal the border of Syria/Lebanon. There by cutting off hezbollah of any outside support.
    Hmm, I don't know about that. Seems to be just as much risk from Hizbullah with the added risk of pissing off the local Syrians.
  13. #393  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    My first step would have been for Israel to seal the border of Syria/Lebanon. There by cutting off hezbollah of any outside support.
    Charming idea but....
    a. How many Arab countries would go along with it? And what would they do (consequences)?
    b. How would Syria react (Scud missiles are already aimed @ Israel as we speak)?
    c. How would arms arriving via the sea be stopped?
    d. How could Israel penetrate the Lebanese border without Hezbollah fighting back? Or Syria?
    e. Something to ponder about:
    Quote: "Even in the Arab world, it is obvious that what we are witnessing along the southern border of Lebanon is Iranian foreign policy. Without Iranian weapons and Iranian direction, Hezbollah's swagger would be hollow..." - tnr.com
    Quote: "There is no principle or interest that should require Israel to live forever with this threat. If the Israeli campaign against Hezbollah does not decisively cripple the movement and its army, there will be no peace to speak of along Israel's northern border--and no country to speak of beyond it. As long as Hezbollah is unbroken, Lebanon is unformed. To be sure, it is not Israel's responsibility to fix Lebanon (this was one of Ariel Sharon's mistakes in 1982, during the Lebanon war, and Ehud Olmert seems determined not to repeat it), but let there be no mistake: Israel's victory will be Lebanon's victory..." - tnr.com
  14. #394  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Best thing to do is to obliterate the terrorists.
    Starting with Ariel Sharon?
  15. TomUps's Avatar
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    #395  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    My first step would have been for Israel to seal the border of Syria/Lebanon. There by cutting off hezbollah of any outside support.
    So you would have destroyed every truck coming in, sunk every ship, and shot down every plane...thats the only way to be sure. I hope theres alot more to your plan. What do you do about Hezbollah operating out of, and firing rockets and missles from civilian areas? How do you stop Hezbollah from invading Israel? How do you enforce the UN resolution demanding Hezbollah disarms?
  16. #396  
    Blaze, is this the BEST you & NRG can up with? Really getting boring...
  17. TomUps's Avatar
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    #397  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Starting with Ariel Sharon?
    So your in favor of Ariel Sharon being "obliterated", but are against Israels right to "obliterate" Hezbollah? Thats pretty amazing even for you.
  18.    #398  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    So your in favor of Ariel Sharon being "obliterated", but are against Israels right to "obliterate" Hezbollah? Thats pretty amazing even for you.
    I'm thinking Ariel Sharon isn't a huge threat to anyone.
  19. #399  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Starting with Ariel Sharon?
    That doesn't even make sense.
  20. #400  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    That doesn't even make sense.
    Yes, the only way to make it stop is to destroy them.

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