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  1. TomUps's Avatar
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    #361  
    And by the way, NRG, the photos from Lebanon are indeed horrifying and disturbing, but where are the photos showing Israeli victims?
    Great question.
  2. NRG
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    #362  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    And the US is mostly behind Israel. Last CNN poll I saw said 57% sided with Israel and agreed they have every right to protect themselves.
    I am suprised the poll is not higher. Israel has every right to protect itself. I don't think there is a person in the world who would argue any different.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Why should any Israeli care at all what any European thinks about its right to survive. Trust me, I know alot of Israelis, and they do not care anymore what Germany, France, and Great Britian feel.
    And I know Lebanese and Israelis so what? Israel should care what the world thinks because it is the world they live in.



    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Only Hezbollah to blame, firing rockets and keeping weapon caches in civilian areas. They should be ashamed of themselves for bringing Lebanon to the point of destruction.
    You are right Hezbollah is to blame in some fashion. And Israel should be ashamed at the civilian life they have taken over 2 soldiers.


    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    If being right means being alone, then so be it. I hope our countriy always sides with a country fighting against terrorists.
    Fighting against terrorists is one thing, killing civilians is quite another.


    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Ofcourse you didnt mention the US also gives about $2 billion a year to Egypt. Imagine giving money to a country where most people wish for death for most americans and openly support Al-Qaida. We should give all that money to Israel.
    Of course I did not mention it,..... because I did not write the article.


    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Yes, the US supplies Israel with military equipment. Hezbollah gets theirs from Syria and Iran. Hezbollah hides weapons and fires missles into Israel from civilian areas and then complains when Lebanese civilains get killed in strikes to neutralize their capability to attack Israeli citizens. Laughable, the hypocrisy the rest of the world has shown here. Im proud our congress and president has backed Israel in their battle against the Hezbollah terrorists.
    You are going to have to seperate your views of Hezbollah, and the Lebanese civilians. They are 2 seperate things. Please see this and understand this is where I am coming from.



    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Post after post from your attacking Israel, showing pictures of dead Lebanese. Not one comment from you on who strated this war, not one comment from you on Israeli deaths. Just amazing.
    There really is not too much to mention about Israeli deaths. There has only been 15-20 civilian deaths on the Israeli side. Trust me if the roles were reversed I would complaining just as loud.
    Last edited by NRG; 07/22/2006 at 04:06 PM.
  3. NRG
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    #363  
    Quote Originally Posted by impish
    Englad who?...
    Our only real ally in that other war, Iraq. Now you remember England?Nice try though

    Quote Originally Posted by impish
    World Opinion (from npr.org):

    TURKEY

    Zaman Daily Newspaper

    July 20, 2006
    Strategically, Israel must focus on Lebanon, knowing that how the confrontation with Hezbollah ends will have serious repercussions on the Palestinian front. Considering the implications for their national security, the Israelis have no choice but to finish off Hezbollah by destroying its infrastructure and arsenals.

    AUSTRALIA
    Israel Must Win...

    The Australian

    July 21, 2006
    However many battles the Israelis win, their sixty-year struggle for survival will never end unless they achieve their objectives in the war of ideas. Yet on this fiercely contested front, the fighting is not going Israel's way.

    Some of you folks are going to need to seperate the civilians from Hezbollah. It would go a great distance in resolving this debate. Noone I know and certainly not me are saying Hezbollah should be allowed to roam free.

    Quote Originally Posted by impish
    And by the way, NRG, the photos from Lebanon are indeed horrifying and disturbing, but where are the photos showing Israeli victims.
    Point me in the direction and I will post them if that will make you happy?
  4. TomUps's Avatar
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    #364  
    And I know Lebanese so what? Israel should care what the world thinks because it is the world they live in.
    My point being that Israelis long ago lost interest in Europes lack of condemnation of terrorist attacks inside Israel, lack of condemnation of civilian deaths inside Israel, and dont really care anymore what they have to say.
    The funniest thing I read all day was the Russian diplomat claiming Israels response to being attacked by a terrorist organization was out of line. Does his country realize what they have done to Chechnya? HYPOCRITES.

    You are right Hezbollah is to blame in some fashion. And Israel should be ashamed at the civilian life they have taken over 2 soldiers.
    Maybe the Israelis are a little upset that they were invaded by a terrorist organization operating freely in a neighboring country. Can you imagine what the US would do if it was attacked by terrorists from Mexico who were given protection and saftey from the goverment?

    Fighting against terrorists is one thing, killing civilians is quite another.
    When the terrorist hide weapons, fire rockets, and have command Hqs in civilian areas, there really is no choice.


    Of course I did not mention it,..... because I did not write the article.
    But you have no problem detailing aid to Israel. I think its important to put it in perspective to where some of our other money goes.



    There really is not too much to mention about Israeli deaths. There has only been 15-20 civilian deaths on the Israeli side. Trust me if the roles were reversed I would complaining just as loud.
    Wow, just amazing. If Hezbollah was only more succesfull you would speak out
  5. NRG
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    #365  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Wow, just amazing. If Hezbollah was only more succesfull you would speak out
    Killing civilians, on either side is not a measure of success. Also to add, 2 wrongs do not make a right. I also think you misconstrued what I said, or I did not make myself clear enough. what I am trying to say is. If there was a terrorist organazation in Israel that trifled w/ Lebanon,and the Lebanon AF bombed the crap out the Israeli civilians, I would have an issue w. that as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    There really is not too much to mention about Israeli deaths. There has only been 15-20 civilian deaths on the Israeli side. Trust me if the roles were reversed I would complaining just as loud.
    I would like revise the above number. 13 israeli civilains.
    Last edited by NRG; 07/22/2006 at 04:24 PM.
  6. NRG
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    #366  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    I think its important to put it in perspective to where some of our other money goes.
    And I agree.
  7. #367  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Point me in the direction and I will post them if that will make you happy?
    But my entire being is is to make *you* happy. .... The point I made was about acknowledging some balance. Wars are hell there is no dispute over it, but my goodness, both Israelis and Lebanese suffer and die here.
  8. NRG
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    #368  
    Quote Originally Posted by impish
    But my entire being is is to make *you* happy.
    Glad you found your purpose. J/K

    Quote Originally Posted by impish
    .... The point I made was about acknowledging some balance. Wars are hell there is no dispute over it, but my goodness, both Israelis and Lebanese suffer and die here.
    I understand balance, and trust me I don't think war is a bed of roses, more like a bed of the rose's stems w/ all the thornes and bugs. Again, my issue is the lack of planning on the Israelis part to protect the innocent Lebanese civilians.
  9. #369  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Our only real ally in that other war, Iraq. Now you remember England?Nice try though
    I thought so too

    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Some of you folks are going to need to seperate the civilians from Hezbollah. It would go a great distance in resolving this debate. Noone I know and certainly not me are saying Hezbollah should be allowed to roam free.
    OK then: How would *you* fight Hezbollah (knowing that they hide/live among civilians as a shield)?
    If Hezbollah should not be allowed to roam free how would *you* take care of it?
  10.    #370  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    You seem to be missing the point, sir. But if you are grasping the fact that these are lebanese civilians, then what you are advocating is collective punishment. Are you advocating collective punishment Awerry?
    Hizbullah is.
  11. NRG
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    #371  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Hizbullah is.
    I understand, and I by no means am saying it is right, on either side. My only beef with this whole thing is the large amount of loss of civilian life.
  12. TomUps's Avatar
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    #372  
    yes, lots of Lebanese civilans have been killed, and they would all be still alive today if Hezbollah didn't invade Israel. Hezbollah killed these people with their actions.
  13.    #373  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I understand, and I by no means am saying it is right. My only beef with this whole thing is the large amount of loss of civilian life.
    You quoted something over 300 since the hostilities began. Do you know how many are innocent civilians?
  14.    #374  
    Anyway, I don't want to get too much into a numbers game. My point is that wars are won--and by virtue of being won: ended--by disproportionate responses. I'm not advocating innocent civilian deaths but I am advocating an end to the war which, in the long term, will minimize death.
  15. NRG
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    #375  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    You quoted something over 300 since the hostilities began. Do you know how many are innocent civilians?
    I was posting a headline, I should have researched it a litte better, and I would have put this in there.

    NEW YORK (AP)--More than 396 people have been reported killed in Lebanon and Israel since fighting broke out July 12 between Israel forces and Hezbollah guerrillas.
    IN LEBANON:
    At least 362 have been killed and 1,350 wounded, according to the Health Ministry. Among them are 20 Lebanese army soldiers and six Hezbollah guerrillas.
    Among the civilian deaths are 8 Canadians, 2 Kuwaiti nationals, 1 Iraqi, 1 Sri Lankan, 1 Jordanian.
    Among the latest deaths Friday:
    -Three Hezbollah guerrillas in clashes at border.
    -Three people in Israeli artillery shelling in the border village of Aita al-Shaab.
    -Two civilians in strike on building in eastern city of Baalbek.
    -One person in strike on Beirut's southern suburbs.
    -One person in building hit in southern town of Nabatiyeh.
    IN ISRAEL:
    Thirty four Israelis have been killed, including 19 members of the military. More than nine soldiers have been wounded, and 344 civilians.
    Latest deaths:
    - An air force officer in a collision of two helicopters near the border.
    - Two Israeli soldiers in clashes with guerrillas at border.
  16. NRG
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    #376  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Anyway, I don't want to get too much into a numbers game. My point is that wars are won--and by virtue of being won: ended--by disproportionate responses. I'm not advocating innocent civilian deaths but I am advocating an end to the war which, in the long term, will minimize death.
    Understood, but that notion generally applies to military not civilians.
  17. NRG
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    #377  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    yes, lots of Lebanese civilans have been killed, and they would all be still alive today if Hezbollah didn't invade Israel. Hezbollah killed these people with their actions.
    That is referred to as 'collective punishment' Tom.
  18.    #378  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Understood, but that notion generally applies to military not civilians.
    Until recently, we Americans have been able to hold a sanitized view of war. For most of the last Century we've not had a battle field on the contiguous states. But the truth is that battle fields are not held in a vacuum. For the most part, they are held where people live. In this case, since it is largely a guerilla war, its even harder to distinguish between the innocent and guilty. Yes, Israel should try to minimize civilian deaths. But they're left with little choice when "soldiers" chose to live among the innocent.
  19. #379  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    You seem to be missing the point, sir. But if you are grasping the fact that these are lebanese civilians, then what you are advocating is collective punishment. Are you advocating collective punishment Awerry?
    No. I'm advocating collective responsibility. What was Lebanon doing while the rockets from Hezbollah were raining down on Israel day after day? Was there any effort to try to control what was going on within the Lebanese borders?

    I see you complaining loudly about the Israeli OVER-reaction to what happened, please point out the posts of yours where you were equally upset about Lebanon's UNDER-reaction to what Hezbollah was doing BEFORE Israel responded.

    I truly grieve for the loss of innocent life on both sides but I firmly believe in the "sow the wind, reap the whirlwind" principle.

    The double standard that we are seeing in world reaction to this situation is breathtaking.
  20. NRG
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    #380  
    Quote Originally Posted by awerry
    No. I'm advocating collective responsibility.
    In other words the civilians should pay for Hezbollah's aggression since they did not stand up to Hezbollah?

    Quote Originally Posted by awerry
    What was Lebanon doing while the rockets from Hezbollah were raining down on Israel day after day? Was there any effort to try to control what was going on within the Lebanese borders?
    With what were they to do? Any kinda action such as what you have stated, from my understanding, would have tipped off a civil war in a new fledgling democracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by awerry
    I see you complaining loudly about the Israeli OVER-reaction to what happened, please point out the posts of yours where you were equally upset about Lebanon's UNDER-reaction to what Hezbollah was doing BEFORE Israel responded.
    See above. Plus no to mention there was/is 2000 UN troops in southren Lebanon, trying to disarm Hezbollah. Also, a side note, Israel was in there for 18 years and it also was not able to disarm Hezzbollah. So what would you expect Lebanon to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by awerry
    I truly grieve for the loss of innocent life on both sides but I firmly believe in the "sow the wind, reap the whirlwind" principle.
    This is the issue that gets me upset. All these folks are not Hezbollah or hezbollah supporters. You are advocating 'collective punishment' call it what you will but it is 'collective punishment'. You can put lipstick on the pig, but in the end it is still a pig. Make NO mistake collective punishment is illegal by international law. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by awerry
    The double standard that we are seeing in world reaction to this situation is breathtaking.
    What double standard do you speak of.
    Last edited by NRG; 07/22/2006 at 07:51 PM.

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