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  1. NRG
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    #341  
    Worth a read.

    Source: Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights

    UN rights chief calls for protection of civilians and accountability in Mideast crisis

    19 July 2006 – Expressing grave concern at the killing and maiming of civilians in Lebanon, Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory, United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights Louise Arbour said today that the shelling of cities was an “unacceptable targeting of civilians,” and stressed that international law demands accountability.

    The High Commissioner also emphasized that parties to any conflict have the obligation to exercise precaution and respect the principle of proportionality in all military operations so as to prevent unnecessary suffering among the civilian population.

    She also added her voice to calls for unrestricted and secure passage of all humanitarian assistance, including rapid and unimpeded access for humanitarian workers. According to the latest figures from the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) around 500,000 people from Lebanon have been displaced by the recent violence.

    Statements:

    “Indiscriminate shelling of cities constitutes a foreseeable and unacceptable targeting of civilians. Similarly, the bombardment of sites with alleged military significance, but resulting invariably in the killing of innocent civilians, is unjustifiable”, she said in a statement.

    “International humanitarian law is clear on the supreme obligation to protect civilians during hostilities…International law demands accountability. The scale of the killings in the region, and their predictability, could engage the personal criminal responsibility of those involved, particularly those in a position of command and control.”

    “The situation in the south of Lebanon is alarming. A large and steadily increasing number of persons have been forcibly displaced. The most basic human rights of the population are at risk or are being violated, including their rights to life, health and food.”
  2. NRG
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    #342  
    Is Pat right? A great read too.

    Where are the Christians
    By Patrick J. Buchanan

    Tuesday, July 18, 2006


    When Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert unleashed his navy and air force on Lebanon, accusing that tiny nation of an "act of war," the last pillar of Bush's Middle East policy collapsed.

    First came capitulation on the Bush Doctrine, as Pyongyang and Tehran defied Bush's dictum: The world's worst regimes will not be allowed to acquire the world's worst weapons. Then came suspension of the democracy crusade as Islamic militants exploited free elections to advance to power and office in Egypt, Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank, Iraq and Iran.

    Now Israel's rampage against a defenseless Lebanon -- smashing airport runways, fuel tanks, power plants, gas stations, lighthouses, bridges, roads and the occasional refugee convoy -- has exposed Bush's folly in subcontracting U.S. policy out to Tel Aviv, thus making Israel the custodian of our reputation and interests in the Middle East.

    The Lebanon that Israel, with Bush's blessing, is smashing up has a pro-American government, heretofore considered a shining example of his democracy crusade. Yet, asked in St. Petersburg if he would urge Israel to use restraint in its air strikes, Bush sounded less like the leader of the Free World than some bellicose city councilman from Brooklyn Heights.

    -snip-

    Olmert seized upon Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers to unleash the IDF in a pre-planned attack to make the Lebanese people suffer until the Lebanese government disarms Hezbollah, a task the Israeli army could not accomplish in 18 years of occupation.

    Israel is doing the same to the Palestinians. To punish these people for the crime of electing Hamas, Olmert imposed an economic blockade of Gaza and the West Bank and withheld the $50 million in monthly tax and customs receipts due the Palestinians.

    Then, Israel instructed the United States to terminate all aid to the Palestinian Authority, though Bush himself had called for the elections and for the participation of Hamas. Our Crawford cowboy meekly complied.

    The predictable result: Fatah and Hamas fell to fratricidal fighting, and Hamas militants began launching Qassam rockets over the fence from Gaza into Israel. Hamas then tunneled into Israel, killed two soldiers, captured one, took him back into Gaza, and demanded a prisoner exchange.

    Israel's response was to abduct half of the Palestinian cabinet and parliament and blow up a $50 million U.S.-insured power plant. That cut off electricity for half a million Palestinians. Their food spoiled, their water could not be purified, and their families sweltered in the summer heat of the Gaza desert. One family of seven was wiped out on a beach by what the IDF assures us was an errant artillery shell.

    Let it be said: Israel has a right to defend herself, a right to counter-attack against Hezbollah and Hamas, a right to clean out bases from which Katyusha or Qassam rockets are being fired and a right to occupy land from which attacks are mounted on her people.

    But what Israel is doing is imposing deliberate suffering on civilians, collective punishment on innocent people, to force them to do something they are powerless to do: disarm the gunmen among them. Such a policy violates international law and comports neither with our values nor our interests. It is un-American and un-Christian.

    But where are the Christians? Why is Pope Benedict virtually alone among Christian leaders to have spoken out against what is being done to Lebanese Christians and Muslims?

    -snip-

    Already, Bush is ranting about Syria being behind the Hezbollah capture of the Israeli soldiers. But where is the proof?

    Who is whispering in his ear? The same people who told him Iraq was maybe months away from an atom bomb, that an invasion would be a "cakewalk," that he would be Churchill, that U.S. troops would be greeted with candy and flowers, that democracy would break out across the region, that Palestinians and Israelis would then sit down and make peace?
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    #343  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Is Pat right? A great read too.
    Pat is a nut job, and Im glad my opinions always fall on the opposite side as his. Pat hates Jews, blacks, hispanics, homosexuals, and just about everybody else (I dont think he is a treocentral member so I think I can say this). He has a long, long history of jew hating. Pats idea of an Israeli conspiracy theory holds as much water as some of his other outrageous claims he has made in the past. NRG, you should always look at the source before you post.

    Here are a few other of his great quotes from the past. I just did a quick google.

    "Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free"

    "Who are beneficiaries of the Court's protection? Members of various minorities including criminals, atheists, homosexuals, flag burners, illegal immigrants (including terrorists), convicts, and pornographers"

    "Parents have a right to insist that godless evolution not be taught to their children."
    Last edited by TomUps; 07/20/2006 at 07:33 AM.
  4. #344  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Pat is a nut job, and Im glad my opinions always fall on the opposite side as his. Pat hates Jews, blacks, hispanics, homosexuals, and just about everybody else (I dont think he is a treocentral member so I think I can say this). He has a long, long history of jew hating. Pats idea of an Israeli conspiracy theory holds as much water as some of his other outrageous claims he has made in the past. NRG, you should always look at the source before you post.

    Here are a few other of his great quotes from the past. I just did a quick google.

    "Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free"

    "Who are beneficiaries of the Court's protection? Members of various minorities including criminals, atheists, homosexuals, flag burners, illegal immigrants (including terrorists), convicts, and pornographers"

    "Parents have a right to insist that godless evolution not be taught to their children."
    Hmm, then I wonder how he got 3000 votes in Palm Beach County in 2000?
  5. TomUps's Avatar
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    #345  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Hmm, then I wonder how he got 3000 votes in Palm Beach County in 2000?
    < < sent to user for editing > >
  6. #346  
    Is this thread going anywhere anymore? Too much baiting all around. We'll call this a 'thread warning' - the thread itself is going off the rails and I'll have to close it if it doens't get back on track.
  7. TomUps's Avatar
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    #347  
    Septimus,

    Im not sure at all what the problem is with my last response. theBlaze, replied to my comment that Pat Buchanon had a long histroy of Jew hating, with that he found it strange he got a few thousands votes in Palm Beach florida. All I said is there are non-jews in Palm Beach..I yet to see a problem with my response.
  8. #348  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Septimus,

    Im not sure at all what the problem is with my last response. theBlaze, replied to my comment that Pat Buchanon had a long histroy of Jew hating, with that he found it strange he got a few thousands votes in Palm Beach florida. All I said is there are non-jews in Palm Beach..I yet to see a problem with my response.
    Moderation issues are dealt with via private message, I sent you one.
  9. #350  
    Food for thoughts:

    "It would be too charming to suggest that the Jewish state has now emerged as the protector of Sunni Islam, but there is no denying that the events in Lebanon have furnished a strategic illumination. Many people have observed with delight the varying degrees of solidarity with Israel's war against Hezbollah that have been expressed by Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and even the Arab League, which has now broken its perfect record of being on the wrong side of every crisis in the region. There is nothing pro-Zionist about this solidarity; not at all. Nor is it owed to a fair-minded recognition that Israel's war against Hezbollah is a response to Hezbollah's war against Israel. There is no fairness in the Middle East. No, this astonishing development is a conclusion drawn coldly and correctly from a strategic evaluation of the situation.

    Even in the Arab world, it is obvious that what we are witnessing along the southern border of Lebanon is Iranian foreign policy. Without Iranian weapons and Iranian direction, Hezbollah's swagger would be hollow, and the Lebanese government might stand a chance of bringing Sayyid Hassan Nasrallah's fevered thugs under control. To be sure, Syria has continued to play a mischievous role in Lebanon after its expulsion in the wake of the Cedar pseudo-Revolution, but it, too, is an instrument of Tehran, which is its great patron in the region. It is said that Iran created this crisis so as to divert attention from the ongoing crisis of its nuclear development, and no doubt this is so. But the full truth is even grimmer. It is that Iran has now emerged as a regional power, that its power is increasing (this is one of the many unhappy consequences of the war in Iraq), and that it is more and more eager to show its power. Not even Khomeini did what Ahmadinejad has done.

    Ahmadinejad's Iran is a problem for Israel because of the violence it can order from afar and because of its remorseless pursuit of weapons of mass destruction; but it is not only Israel's problem. The Sunni societies in the Middle East have taken notice of the Shia arousal that Iran (and Hezbollah) represents. Whether or not contemporary history is characterized by a clash of civilizations, it certainly includes a clash within a civilization--the Islamic one. In Iran, in Iraq, in Lebanon, politics and political violence are now inspired not least by an ancient internecine hostility. Nothing else can explain the Saudi empathy for Israel in this war. (Now there's a sentence!)


    The ascendancy of Ahmadinejad's perfidious Iran is a spectacular problem for the United States, and a spectacular challenge. Iran is now the single most powerful force arrayed against American ideals and interests in the Middle East. The various Islamist movements pose various threats; but here is Islamism incarnated in a large and ambitious state. For this reason, U.S. policy toward Iran must consist of more than an attempt to frustrate its nuclear designs. If we do not isolate Iran regionally and globally, if we do not do everything we can to support the democratizing forces in Iran, and of course if we do not move ruthlessly to prevent Iran from acquiring the deadliest arsenal of all, then we will have presided over the creation of a nightmare worse than the nightmare of Saddam Hussein. If we succeed in Iraq (a considerable if) and fail in Iran, we will have failed in the Middle East. Unfortunately, it is not clear that President Bush grasps this.

    But we must have no illusions. The old reactionary alignments are likely to reassert themselves soon. The Israeli-Islamist war may have clarified the region, but it has not recreated it. Israel certainly cannot wager its security on an epiphany in Riyadh. For the time being, then, the surest way to defeat Tehran is to defeat Hezbollah. Hezbollah's accumulation of its arsenal has, for a long time, been a scandal--a war waiting to happen; and its role as the aggressor in the present crisis is clear. There is no principle or interest that should require Israel to live forever with this threat. If the Israeli campaign against Hezbollah does not decisively cripple the movement and its army, there will be no peace to speak of along Israel's northern border--and no country to speak of beyond it. As long as Hezbollah is unbroken, Lebanon is unformed. To be sure, it is not Israel's responsibility to fix Lebanon (this was one of Ariel Sharon's mistakes in 1982, during the Lebanon war, and Ehud Olmert seems determined not to repeat it), but let there be no mistake: Israel's victory will be Lebanon's victory. It would be heartless not to recoil against the civilian casualties that this war is claiming, but it would be mindless not to affirm the rightness of this struggle against the madmen and their rockets."

    -The New Republic Magazine Editorial
  10. NRG
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    #351  
    Looks like the world is right along my lines of thinking as far as the Lebanon issue goes.

    Source: Observer

    British government breaks with Bush over Israel

    Britain has dramatically broken ranks with George Bush over the Lebanon crisis, publicly criticising Israel's military tactics and urging the Americans to 'understand' the price being paid by ordinary Lebanese civilians.

    The remarks, made in Beirut today by the Foreign Office Minister, Kim Howells, were the first public criticism of the US voiced by Britain. The Observer can also reveal that Tony Blair urged restraint in a private telephone convseration with the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, last week.
    <snip>

    Speaking to a BBC reporter before travelling on for talks in Israel, where he will also visit missile-hit areas of Haifa and meet his Israeli opposite-number, Howell said: 'The destruction of the infrastructure, the death of so many children and so many people. These have not been surgical strikes. If they are chasing Hizbollah, then go for Hizbollah. You don't go for the entire Lebanese nation.'

    He added: 'I very much hope that the Americans understand what's happening to Lebanon.' Only hours earlier, President Bush used his weekly radio address to place the blame for the crisis squarely on Hizbollah and their Syrian and Iranian backers.
  11. NRG
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    #352  
    Doing what George does best.


    Source: AP

    U.S. threatened with more isolation

    WASHINGTON - President Bush's uncompromising support for Israel in its battle with Hezbollah, a stance now backed by Congress, is threatening to isolate the United States even further from the international community.

    It is also putting the administration at odds with fragile democratic governments in the Middle East that it is simultaneously trying to prop up, and sowing increasing anger across the Arab world.

    The democratically elected prime ministers of both Iraq and Lebanon have been among the most vocal critics of U.S. policy in the 10-day Israeli bombardment of Lebanon.

    Some foreign policy analysts question whether Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice can make much headway on her trip to the region early next week — especially given U.S. rejection of international calls for a cease-fire and refusal to talk to key players such as Hezbollah or its Iranian and Syrian sponsors.

    "You don't just negotiate with your friends. Sometimes you negotiate with your enemies, or at least your adversaries," said Sandy Berger, former national security adviser in the Clinton White House. "We negotiated with the Soviet Union for 50 years."
  12. NRG
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    #353  
    Aid to Israel.
    Source: Reuters via Yahoo!

    By Jim Wolf
    Wed Jul 19, 11:44 PM ET

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Israel's latest military operations reflect a fighting machine bolstered by U.S. weaponry, jet fuel and technology transfers -- and more is on its way.

    From 1971 through 2005, U.S. aid to Israel has averaged more than $2 billion a year, two-thirds of which has been military assistance(holy crap!!), according to the U.S. Congressional Research Service.

    U.S. military grants to Israel totaled $2.28 billion in fiscal 2006 ending September 30, according to a new tally in the Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs, a nonpartisan magazine.

    -snip-

    JET FUEL

    The Pentagon notified Congress on Friday that it planned to sell Israel JP-8 aviation fuel valued at up to $210 million to help its aircraft "keep peace and security in the region."

    Israel sought the fuel about six months ago as part of a continuing purchase program, a knowledgeable Pentagon official said.

    The last time an Israeli jet fuel request triggered a congressional notification was in September 2004. The threshold for such notice in Israel's case is $50 million. Israel's previous, congressionally notified, request sought fuel worth up to $102 million if all options were exercised.
    -snip-
  13. NRG
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    #354  
    Some photos of Israel's "pinpoint surgical" strikes on Lebanon.

    As of Friday, Lebanon Health Ministry: 362 killed, 1,350 wounded since start of hostilities (AP)















  14. #355  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Some photos of Israel's "pinpoint surgical" strikes on Lebanon.
    I guess Hezbollah's less than accurate rockets are to be preferred over the more precise ones used by Israel?
  15. NRG
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    #356  
    Quote Originally Posted by awerry
    I guess Hezbollah's less than accurate rockets are to be preferred over the more precise ones used by Israel?
    You seem to be missing the point, sir. But if you are grasping the fact that these are lebanese civilians, then what you are advocating is collective punishment. Are you advocating collective punishment Awerry?
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    #357  
    Looks like the world is right along my lines of thinking as far as the Lebanon issue goes.
    And the US is mostly behind Israel. Last CNN poll I saw said 57% sided with Israel and agreed they have every right to protect themselves.

    British government breaks with Bush over Israel
    Why should any Israeli care at all what any European thinks about its right to survive. Trust me, I know alot of Israelis, and they do not care anymore what Germany, France, and Great Britian feel.


    If they are chasing Hizbollah, then go for Hizbollah. You don't go for the entire Lebanese nation.'
    Only Hezbollah to blame, firing rockets and keeping weapon caches in civilian areas. They should be ashamed of themselves for bringing Lebanon to the point of destruction.

    President Bush's uncompromising support for Israel in its battle with Hezbollah, a stance now backed by Congress, is threatening to isolate the United States even further from the international community.
    If being right means being alone, then so be it. I hope our countriy always sides with a country fighting against terrorists.

    From 1971 through 2005, U.S. aid to Israel has averaged more than $2 billion a year, two-thirds of which has been military assistance(holy crap!!), according to the U.S. Congressional Research Servic
    Ofcourse you didnt mention the US also gives about $2 billion a year to Egypt. Imagine giving money to a country where most people wish for death for most americans and openly support Al-Qaida. We should give all that money to Israel.


    Yes, the US supplies Israel with military equipment. Hezbollah gets theirs from Syria and Iran. Hezbollah hides weapons and fires missles into Israel from civilian areas and then complains when Lebanese civilains get killed in strikes to neutralize their capability to attack Israeli citizens. Laughable, the hypocrisy the rest of the world has shown here. Im proud our congress and president has backed Israel in their battle against the Hezbollah terrorists.


    You seem to be missing the point, sir. But if you are grasping the fact that these are lebanese civilians, then what you are advocating is collective punishment. Are you advocating collective punishment Awerry?
    Post after post from your attacking Israel, showing pictures of dead Lebanese. Not one comment from you on who strated this war, not one comment from you on Israeli deaths. Just amazing.
  17. #358  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Ofcourse you didnt mention the US also gives about $2 billion a year to Egypt.

    cite please
  18. TomUps's Avatar
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    #359  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    cite please
    http://www.menewsline.com/stories/2006/may/05_22_4.html

    $1.7 billion


    http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0412/p07s01-wome.html
    $50 billion in aide since 1975. TO PEOPLE THAT WANT TO KILL US. Funny how the liberal left never mentions this.

    http://www.ameu.org/page.asp?iid=126&aid=169&pg=5


    Goggle it yourself.
  19. #360  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Looks like the world is right along my lines of thinking as far as the Lebanon issue goes.
    Englad who?...

    World Opinion (from npr.org):

    TURKEY

    Zaman Daily Newspaper

    July 20, 2006
    Strategically, Israel must focus on Lebanon, knowing that how the confrontation with Hezbollah ends will have serious repercussions on the Palestinian front. Considering the implications for their national security, the Israelis have no choice but to finish off Hezbollah by destroying its infrastructure and arsenals.

    AUSTRALIA
    Israel Must Win...

    The Australian

    July 21, 2006
    However many battles the Israelis win, their sixty-year struggle for survival will never end unless they achieve their objectives in the war of ideas. Yet on this fiercely contested front, the fighting is not going Israel's way.


    And by the way, NRG, the photos from Lebanon are indeed horrifying and disturbing, but where are the photos showing Israeli victims?

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