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  1. #301  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Who started the crisis that caused that situation to even be able to take place to start with?
    ????
  2. NRG
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    #302  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Yes, that was the incident which started this. I thought I had mentioned it a couple of times in this thread.
    Sorry, took a break from the thread for a bit. Has anyone answered you yet?
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    #303  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    No, you can start with the enemies creeated by taking their land. The 1948 resokution tries to make up for this.
    Sorry DaT, but if you knew your histroy you would know the Arabs in Israel at the time where offered their own homeland also, side by side with Israel. They turned it down as they wanted all of Israel.

    How about all the enemies of the people of Israel that were created when six arab countries invaded a few days later?
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    #304  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Sorry, took a break from the thread for a bit. Has anyone answered you yet?
    Why you pick that incident? I can easily post a news story about the deaths of Israeli children and point to that as the start.

    Anyway, what does it have to do with Hezbollah invading Israel?
  5. NRG
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    #305  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Why you pick that incident? I can easily post a news story about the deaths of Israeli children and point to that as the start.

    Anyway, what does it have to do with Hezbollah invading Israel?
    So what started this?
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    #306  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    So what started this?
    Well I think the two fronts are different. The recent war with Hezbollah clearly began about a week ago when Hezbollah invaded Israel from a country that is unable or unwilling to disarm the terrorist organization.
  7. NRG
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    #307  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    Well I think the two fronts are different. The recent war with Hezbollah clearly began about a week ago when Hezbollah invaded Israel from a country that is unable or unwilling to disarm the terrorist organization.
    It wasn't the soldiers kidnapped?
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    #308  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    It wasn't the soldiers kidnapped?
    The soldiers in the north were kidnapped when Israel was invaded by a terrorist organization operating openly and safely in Lebanon. That was exactly when it began.

    If you want to argue that hamas has a legitimate fight with an occuppier, thats fine. But, what right does Hezbollah have here?
  9. #309  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps
    The soldiers in the north were kidnapped when Israel was invaded by a terrorist organization operating openly and safely in Lebanon. That was exactly when it began.

    If you want to argue that hamas has a legitimate fight with an occuppier, thats fine. But, what right does Hezbollah have here?
    CAPTURED
  10. #310  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Sorry, took a break from the thread for a bit. Has anyone answered you yet?
    TomUps
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    #311  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    CAPTURED
    Fine, this war began when the terrorist organization that operates openly and saftly inside of lebanon, invaded israel and captured two soldiers. The terrorist organization then retreated back into Lebanon (where once again the goverment is unwilling to do anything about). Is this better DaT?
  12. #312  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    ????
    MAIN REASONS FOR THE SIX DAY WAR
    At the time, no Arab state had recognized Israel.

    Syria began sponsoring guerilla raids into Israel in the early 1960s as part of its "people's war of liberation", designed to deflect domestic opposition to the Baath Party.......The Israeli government was under heavy pressure to put an end to Syrian shellings of border villages.

    On May 18, 1967, Egypt formally requested the withdrawal of UNEF from Sinai. UN Secretary-General U Thant complied, thus removing the international buffer which had existed along the Egyptian-Israeli border since 1957. Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser then began the re-militarization of the Sinai, and concentrated tanks and troops on the border with Israel.

    --------------

    On the same day, Nasser proclaimed: "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel ... to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not of more declarations."[14]

    At the same time, several other Arab states not bordering Israel, including Iraq, Sudan, Kuwait and Algeria, also began mobilizing their armed forces.......On June 4, Iraq joined the military alliance with Egypt, Jordan and Syria.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day...ns_for_the_war
    On May 22 Nasser announced the closure of the Strait of Tiran, a vital shipping corridor for Israel with links to the Red Sea and major sources of petroleum. A similar closure of the strait had been a major cause of the Suez Crisis in 1956; Israel had made clear since then that it would regard another closure as an act of war. Israel was further alarmed when Egypt and Jordan signed a treaty placing the two armies under a joint command. Despite a flurry of diplomatic effort, war seemed inevitable.

    http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_...ay_War.html#s3

    AFTERMATH OF THE SIX DAY WAR
    The speed and scope of Israelís victory were devastating to the Arabs, who had expected victory. Egypt, Jordan, and Syria lost almost all of their air forces and much of their armed weaponry. About 10,000 Egyptians were killed in Sinai and Gaza alone, compared with 300 Israeli casualties on that front. In all, Egypt lost about 11,000 troops, Jordan lost about 6000, Syria lost about 1000, and Israel lost 700. As a result, Arab leaders endured unpopularity at home while Israelís government, which had united before and during the war, surged in popularity. Abroad, the USSR, which had strongly supported the Arab powers, was embarrassed because the Arab nations had been defeated by an ally of the United States and Soviet weapons systems had failed to overpower Western weapons.

    On November 22 the UN passed Resolution 242, which called for Israel to withdraw from the Occupied Territories; in return Arab states would recognize Israelís independence and guarantee secure borders for Israel. Events, however, did not follow Resolution 242. The Arabs and Palestinians declared their intention to continue fighting Israel, and Israel refused to return the Occupied Territories under such conditions. Terrorist attacks and reprisals persisted, and Israel and Egypt continued to engage in artillery, sniper, and occasional air attacks for several years. As a result, the Six-Day War was followed by what has come to be known as the War of Attrition. Although cease-fire agreements eventually ended this situation, the region remained volatile.

    Israel moved to secure its position in the Occupied Territories by extending its lines of defense to the boundaries of the Arab states. The Sinai, West Bank, and Golan Heights were all fortified, and parts of these areas were lightly settled with Jewish Israelis. Israel also announced its intent to secure Jerusalem as its undivided and eternal capital, further antagonizing the Arab states. These disagreements eventually led to the 1973 Arab-Israeli War of 1973. Nonetheless, Resolution 242, which followed the Six-Day War, created the foundation of the peace process that began to yield results in the late 1970s.

    ---------------

    The framers of Resolution 242 recognized that some territorial adjustments were likely and deliberately did not include words all or the in the official English language version of the text when referring to "territories occupied" during the war, although it is present in other, notably French, Spanish and Russian versions. It recognized the right of "every state in the area" - thus Israel in particular - "to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."

    http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_...ay_War.html#s5
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/19/2006 at 03:23 PM.
  13. #313  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    MAIN REASONS FOR THE SIX DAY WAR







    AFTERMATH OF THE SIX DAY WAR


    ------------

    Yea, I think we can go back a bit further than that.
  14.    #314  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    CAPTURED
    KIDNAPPED
  15. NRG
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    #315  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    extreme antisemite posting here
    Where?
  16.    #316  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    There is a fine line DA between unlawful enemy combatant, and kidnapped. < < septimus edit > >
    What are you implying?

    < < Edit by Septimus: this post may make less sense now that I've changed the original. Move along. > >
  17. #317  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    ...there is an extreme antisemite posting here...
    Where?
  18.    #318  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Its ironic hoovs. The implication is that there is a double standard with respect to the word kidnapped.
    You weren't responding to an ATM post, you were responding to my post. I certainly hope you're not implying that I'm somehow prejudiced against Arabs.
  19. NRG
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    #319  
    I thought I might try to add a little more perspective to this discussion. Here is some Lebanese bloggers for some of the viewers of strictly Fox news.


    1) Michael Totten - Michael Totten is an American writer who travels throughout the Middle East and has a fascinating blog. He's somewhat (delusionally IMO) neo-conish (generally votes Dem but voted Bush in '04, for instance) and he's generally quite pro-Israel as well. His blog is quite good, though, with lots of interviews, pictures, etc.

    Totten lives in Beirut when he's in the Middle East, and he's quite pissed right now, despite his being quite pro-Israel in general.

    http://www.michaeltotten.com




    From 7/15

    ...allow me to clarify a few things so (some of you) can stop thinking I've decided Israel is the enemy or that Hassan Nasrallah deserves anything but a headstone or a war crimes tribunal.

    Obviously Hezbollah started this and Hezbollah is the main problem. Not only did they drag my second home into a war, the bastards also threatened me personally. So I hardly see the point in telling you what I think about them right about now. I'll get to them later.

    I sympathize one hundred percent with what Israel is trying to do here. But they aren't going about it the right way, and they're punishing far too many of the wrong people. Lord knows I could be wrong, and the situation is rapidly changing, but at this particular moment it looks bad for Israel, bad for Lebanon, bad for the United States, good for Syria, and good for Iran.

    There is no alternate universe where the Lebanese government could have disarmed an Iranian-trained terrorist/guerilla militia that even the Israelis could not defeat in years of grinding war. There is no alternate universe where it was in Lebanon's interest to restart the civil war on Israel's behalf, to burn down their country all over again right at the moment where they finally had hope after 30 years of convulsive conflict and Baath Party overlordship.

    The Lebanese government should have asked for more help from the international community. The Lebanese government should have been far less reactionary in its attitude toward the Israelis. They made more mistakes than just two, but I'd say these are the principal ones.

    What should the Israelis have done instead? They should have treated Hezbollahland as a country, which it basically is, and attacked it. They should have treated Lebanon as a separate country, which it basically is, and left it alone. Mainstream Lebanese have no problem when Israel hammers Hezbollah in its little enclave. Somebody has to do it, and it cannot be them. If you want to embolden Lebanese to work with Israelis against Hezbollah, or at least move in to Hezbollah's bombed out positions, don't attack all of Lebanon.

    Israel should not have bombed Central Beirut, which was almost monolithically anti-Hezbollah. They should not have bombed my old neighborhood, which was almost monolithically anti-Hezbollah. They should not have bombed the Maronite city of Jounieh, which was not merely anti-Hezbollah but also somewhat pro-Israel.

    Israelis thinks everyone hates them. It isn't true, especially not in Lebanon. But they will make it so if they do not pay more attention to the internal characteristics of neighboring countries. "The Arabs" do not exist as a bloc except in the feverish dreams of the Nasserists and the Baath. (end of entry)

    From 7/14:

    ...Israel and Lebanon are the two freest countries in the Middle East. They are the only countries, aside from tortured Iraq, that hold unrigged elections for parliaments and heads of state. The tyrants to their east have pulled quite a coup, haven't they? The two countries friendliest to America and to liberal Western values are now shooting each other. (The Lebanese army, which has cooperated with Israel in the past behind the scenes, is now firing anti-aircraft guns at Israeli planes.)

    It's a catastrophe for Lebanon, which is now under siege because Iran took it hostage. It's a catastrophe for Israel, which could have, and should have, worked toward a peace process with the Lebanese. Lebanese are (were?) far and away the most likely of all Arabs to sign a genuine treaty at some point down the road. And it's a catastrophe for the United States. We have few friends in the region already, none of whom get along well with each other as it is.



    Lebanese Political Journal - This blog features a couple bloggers, both of whom are in the process of fleeing Lebanon. Their entries are quite interesting. It should be noted that one of the posters has actually been to Israel and has a dialogue with Israeli bloggers. Yet he is obviously furious as well.


    http://lebop.blogspot.com /


    http://lebop.blogspot.com/2006/07/to-everyone-who-think...

    I'm having trouble not using profanity.

    I guess we in Lebanon should throw away everything that the United States has taught us. I was taught in school about the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. I was taught to stand up to oppression and not use evil against my opponent.

    I was taught to empathize with those in pain.

    I was taught to do things, especially when a people had been particularly brutalized.

    My friends and I have braved violence. We were beaten with batons and sprayed with water cannons by the pro-Syrian Lebanese government. We watched as our television stations were closed, all the while Hezbollah's remained opened.

    Did Israel help us then? Did the United States or France?

    We walked over Lebanese Army barbed wire to protest against the government and the Syrian regime.

    We watched as our leaders, spokespeople, AND FRIENDS were assassinated on a monthly basis. Our neighborhoods were bombed. Our elected leaders were forced to live outside of the country in fear for their lives.

    We kept pushing.

    We pushed against Hezbollah to disarm the entire time. Some were bigots who made sectarian slurs. We kept our Hezbollah sympathetic friends and worked to changed their minds peacefully, as we know better than anyone outside of Lebanon the strange twists that sectarianism gives to every issue and how a terrorist organization can be the only hope for people who've suffered tremendously. The State Department and the White House understood this, too, which is why they cut the Lebanese government slack in disarming Hezbollah. They knew it was impossible to do immediately on multiple levels.

    We watched as big countries with big arms and big international roles CHICKENED OUT (yeah, that's you America) about confronting Syria. We continued screaming against the terrorist regime, but no one would listen. Walid Jumblatt argued for the overthrow of Syria IN WASHINGTON!!! He gave a speech calling for Hezbollah to disarm and questioning the validity of one of Hezbollah's main issues: Lebanese sovereignty over the Shebaa Farms.

    We had a National Dialogue in which we were trying to prevent war by making all parties amenable to change. This was after Hezbollah froze the government and kept the country in political limbo for months.

    Is this not enough for you? What the hell more were we supposed to do? Honestly, what more?

    ***

    http://lebop.blogspot.com/2006/07/becoming-refugee.html

    Becoming a Refugee
    We have no sympathy for Israel's position right now. None.

    We have sympathy for the Israeli civilians being hit by Hezbollah bombs, but there is no justification for Israel's action. It's abusive. The United States did not hit civilians or civilian escape routes out of the country like this when invading either Afghanistan or Iraq.

    Israel made its statement. We cannot tolerate any more. We understood what they were doing. We understood why they needed to do it. But now, there is no sympathy left. Hezbollah is not a mortal danger to you. It has the potential to be, but we Lebanese have been trying to change that internally, through UN resolutions and peacefully.

    The bombing has gone on for too long. It's too fierce. Hezbollah has lost morale. The Shia have lost morale. The Lebanese have lost their country.

    This is a fight Israel cannot win. Everyone in Lebanon knows that Hezbollah cannot win, including Hezbollah. There is nothing Israel can do to get the soldiers back through force. But this isn't about soldiers or Israeli defense any more.

    You've made this country unliveable for the people fighting to disarm Hezbollah.

    Guess what? I'm leaving. Yep. Me.

    Where am I going? Syria. Didn't want to, but I have to. The people we marched against are the ones you sent us begging to. The people who assassinated our leaders, kept us from having an operating democracy, and who armed Hezbollah are laughing it up because they've won the game because of you.

    Bashar Assad said Lebanon would be destroyed if he left. I didn't know the Israelis would play into his game. It's not surprising that Syrian-allied Hezbollah started the mess, but you guys are just vicious.

    All my Hezbollah supporting friends are sticking around. They call the rest of us cowards. I guess we are. We want to do scientific research. We want our children to learn how to play the piano. We want to watch our stock porfolios burgeon. We can't do that here any more.

    I tried to sympathize with you. I didn't support Hezbollah, and if you look at the posts before this conflict began, I was maligning the political parties that oppose Hezbollah for not doing enough.

    I even gave you guys the benefit of the doubt at the beginning of this, as did most Lebanese. Even the Shia, Christians, and Druze in South Lebanon understood your position. Not any more.

    Oh, well. I'm a refugee.
  20. NRG
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    #320  
    Post from blog above. And I think this sums up my general feeling.

    I hate to say this, but Israel has been surprisingly restrained given the leeway they have been given by the international community. Lebanon does not deserve to be destroyed in this way, but the world sees this as an opportunity to isolate Iran and Syria, and Israel has a case for war. This war is ridiculous because it isn't one. Israel is at war. Hezbollah is doing little damage to Israel. Lebanon is being destroyed.

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