Page 1 of 15 12345611 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 299
  1.    #1  
    Disclaimers:
    1. I'm not gay
    2. I have only one wife
    3. I live in Utah, which is the only state to have a constitutional provision banning polygamy.
    4. I support the states having a right to ban or not ban polygamy and gay marriage.

    I have read with interest the recent posts regarding the public policy of gay marriage compared with polygamy. I wanted to understand the arguments about why gay marriage is good, but polygamist marriage is bad.

    I was most surprised with the lack of any meaningful argument explaining how the government should allow gay marriage but deny polygamists the same marriage right. I really thought that gay marriage supporters had better arguments than I have read here. The reasons I have read are basically:

    a. It's a red herring argument which doesn't merit a response, so quit talking about it (typical response when there is no good response);
    b. People in polygamist relationships are unhappy, and that is what distinguishes it from gay marriage (this argument has more holes than swiss cheese); and
    c. Only gays should be in a protected class, but not polygamists (this isn't really an argument, but only a conclusion without any supporting reasons).

    I have to admit that I am surprised at the lack of distinction between gay marriage (ok?) and polygamy (not ok?). While I don't agree with many of the arguments the left wing posters make (Bush is a liar, Iraq war is wrong, media bias, etc), I can at least understand their arguments and reasoning.

    On this issue, however, it seems embarrassing for gay marriage supporters when they struggle in finding a single, cogent argument explaining how the right to gay marriage is different from the right to polygamist marriage. It seems to me a huge inconsistancy. Either support anyone's right to marry anyone (or more than one) they want, or support the state's right to ban all marriages except between one man and one woman.

    I could be missing something, but I doubt it.
    Palm V-->Visor Deluxe-->Visor Prism-->Visorphone-->Treo 180-->Treo 600-->Treo 650 on Sprint-->Treo 700p-->Centro-->Diamond-->Pre-->HTC EVO 4g???!
  2. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
    #2  
    Why should people arguing for gay marraige engage in arguing for polygamy?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #3  
    Why stop at comparing gays to polygamists? No comparison to pedophelia or bestiality?

    By the way, can we merge this thread please. I thought one thread on this topic was too many.
  4.    #4  
    Those are actually the responses I expected. Not to the merits, but just bashing the mere question itself.
    Palm V-->Visor Deluxe-->Visor Prism-->Visorphone-->Treo 180-->Treo 600-->Treo 650 on Sprint-->Treo 700p-->Centro-->Diamond-->Pre-->HTC EVO 4g???!
  5. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
    #5  
    Its not just a question. Its a tactic. You can't justify gay marraige by justifying polygamy, nor should you have to. In fact, I've heard that gay couples, on a whole, are very monogamous and tend to stay together much longer than straight couples.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6.    #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael
    ...You can't justify gay marraige by justifying polygamy, nor should you have to. In fact, I've heard that gay couples, on a whole, are very monogamous and tend to stay together much longer than straight couples.
    Why not? What justification for gay marriage doesn't apply to polygamy? Is your argument that gay couples stay together for a long time, but polygamist marriages don't? I doubt there are any statistics that back that up.


    Posters here are justifying gay marriage in many ways. Each justification seems to support the polygamst marriage argument also, but I am surprised to see gay marriage supporters distance themselves from polygamists. Why? Probably because they think lumping the too together hurts the gay rights fight. Too bad - if their arguments were consistent, they would be stronger.
    Palm V-->Visor Deluxe-->Visor Prism-->Visorphone-->Treo 180-->Treo 600-->Treo 650 on Sprint-->Treo 700p-->Centro-->Diamond-->Pre-->HTC EVO 4g???!
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael
    Its not just a question. Its a tactic. You can't justify gay marraige by justifying polygamy, nor should you have to. In fact, I've heard that gay couples, on a whole, are very monogamous and tend to stay together much longer than straight couples.
    I agree there is "tactic" angle. Some use the "first gay, then polygamy, then x, then y..." argument as a justification for banning the first.

    I make mention of "slippery slopes." However, in the same statement, I address how the slippery slope is not in and of itself justification for action or inaction.

    I would appreciate someone drawing the distinction because I just don't see it--not in the legal sense, that is.

    I did see someone (daT?) speak of the complications polygamy presents in the many making a life or death decision for the one shared spouse. That is a legitimate concern which would have to be addressed in implementation (e.g. first wife is the deciding wife; most recent husband is the deciding; designated spouse is the deciding one...).
  8. nesman89's Avatar
    Posts
    5 Posts
    Global Posts
    6 Global Posts
    #8  
    This has always been my question as it relates to gay marriage. If gay marriage becomes legal then why shouldn't other forms of marriage be legal. i.e. polygamy, incestuous, pedophilia, etc.

    It is my belief that most on this board would argue that my examples do not make sense because because they are just wrong. and by wrong I mean morally reprehensible. if as a society we decide these types of acts are not acceptable such as pedohilia then why should they be allowed/accepted. if someone has sex with a child most would say lock them up and throw away the key. yet if i say this about gay marriage then I'm a closed minded bigot.

    I believe a read an article a few days ago stating less than 3% of the world is gay. seems like a very small number my guess would be if you did research you would find similar numbers for polygamy, incest, and pedophiles.

    again as heberman stated I don't understand why one type of relationship is "good" while the others are "bad"

    I know this is fragmented and rambling but I'm just getting my thoughts out for discussion
  9. #9  
    What exactly is wrong with polygamy. Much more than homosexuality, its commonly practiced in other cultures and other times, was practices by biblical characters in biblical times, involves consensual adults, is commonly practiced in the animal kingdom and can therefore be seen as "natural" and does not result in obvious harm. I dont know why people get excited about it at all.

    Surur
  10. #10  
    Gay marriage is comparable to straight marriage, not polygamy. Gays are not advocating multiple married partners. Just the ability to marry one person of the same gender.

    And, I find neither polygamy nor gay marriage to be problematic. What's done between or among consenting adults, is not everyone else's business. Neither polygamy nor gay marriage would bring the end of the world. Although there are many people who seem to think it will. But those tend to be the same people who are looking forward to the end of the world. So I don't understand where they're coming from.

    If gays marrying (or polygamists) will bring Armageddon and the Rapture, I'd think the right wing would be on board with that.
    Brent
    T650 on Sprint's Wireless Wonder
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by bheuss
    Neither polygamy nor gay marriage would bring the end of the world. Although there are many people who seem to think it will. But those tend to be the same people who are looking forward to the end of the world. So I don't understand where they're coming from.
    Funny you mention that; I seems to me that, logically, polygamy would be more beneficial to the survival of the race.
  12. #12  
    "If someone has sex with a child most would say lock them up and throw away the key. yet if i say this about gay marriage then I'm a closed minded bigot"

    The main difference between sex with a child and gay marriage is the first injures the child and the second does not injure anyone and is between consulting adults.

    People who injure children for their own satisfaction should be locked up. Consulting adults who do not endanger anyone generally should not get locked up. Saying they should be locked up because you find their behavior inappropriate is a pretty low bar for locking people up.

    As for the difference between polygamy and gay marriage, it is in the numbers. As was pointed our before, gay marriage is between TWO consulting adults, strikingly similar to traditional marriage. Polygamy is between MULTIPLE partners and has nothing to do with gay marriage.

    I wish the people would stop the stupid illogical comparisons.
  13. #13  
    did you guys hear about the lady a year or so that married a dolphin? (no I'm not joking)

    that was neat. wonder if I could marry my dog if my wife dies in the line of duty.

    at least it be with someone she loved and my family accepts.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    Either support anyone's right to marry anyone (or more than one) they want, or support the state's right to ban all marriages except between one man and one woman.

    I could be missing something, but I doubt it.
    I just don't think it is (nor should be framed as) an 'either/or' argument.

    Society in general (states in particular) have to draw the lines somewhere. A human marrying a human seems to be easier to justify over a human marrying an animal.

    For an awful long time, society was pretty content with a male marrying a female. Society is changing (for good, bad or indifferent) and a section of the society is calling for equal rights.

    Maybe at some point all the polygamists will call for equal rights and gather the support that it needs to be represented.

    On purely 'fairness' grounds, I find it difficult to make an argument that gays can have marriage but polygamists cannot.

    However, if the man/woman scenario is the 'model' of marriage that America traditionally values, than a man marrying a man or a woman marrying a woman looks more akin to that model than multiple men marrying multiple woman.

    To me, the argument (if someone chooses to distinguish it) is a matter of degree.

    (Im not sure if this is reconcilable...but Im personally against being gay but I am for providing equal rights to everyone. I have gay friends and I love them like all my other friends but I can't condone living that life. Just because I can't completely understand their lifestyles and (at least some) of the choices they make doesnt mean that I don't want them to have and enjoy the same rights I have.)
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHAnderson
    "If someone has sex with a child most would say lock them up and throw away the key. yet if i say this about gay marriage then I'm a closed minded bigot"

    The main difference between sex with a child and gay marriage is the first injures the child and the second does not injure anyone and is between consulting adults.

    People who injure children for their own satisfaction should be locked up. Consulting adults who do not endanger anyone generally should not get locked up. Saying they should be locked up because you find their behavior inappropriate is a pretty low bar for locking people up.

    As for the difference between polygamy and gay marriage, it is in the numbers. As was pointed our before, gay marriage is between TWO consulting adults, strikingly similar to traditional marriage. Polygamy is between MULTIPLE partners and has nothing to do with gay marriage.

    I wish the people would stop the stupid illogical comparisons.
    I don't think its stupid at all. In fact, one might reply to you: polygamy is a bond between man and woman, strikingly similar to traditional marriage except without the numerical limitation.
  16. #16  
    Well the biggest difference I see between gay marriage and plural marriages is financial. As a society we give various financial benefits to married couples that ultimately all of society need to pay for. For example, family leave for medical reasons or pregnancy, health insurance (often paid for by the employer), prefential tax treatment for inheritance (if your spouse dies you pay no tax on jointly owned assets whereas your kids would need to pay something), right to succession in a lease in a subsidized apartment, etc. So if we permit plural marriages (whether it be polygamy or polyandry (ie, multiple husbands to one woman)) society will be effectively subsidizing these extra people. Why should single people have to pay more so one person can have multiple wives or husbands?

    The OP wanted to know a difference, so that's what I see. It's largely a financial issure beyond any moral concerns people may have.

    Because in a monogamous gay marriage you are extendning the financial benefits to one other person....the spouse. In plural marriages you are extending subsidized benefits to multiple people.
    Sprint Treo 700p, Sony UX/TX, u720,
    Edirol R-09, Mitsu PK 20, Mimio
  17. #17  
    I agree that the financial impact is a legitimate concern.

    Is that just cause to "discriminate" against people who practice polygamy?
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Much more than homosexuality, its commonly practiced in other cultures and other times, was practices by biblical characters in biblical times, involves consensual adults, is commonly practiced in the animal kingdom and can therefore be seen as "natural" and does not result in obvious harm.
    Exactly the same (probably with the exception of the biblical characters) can be said about homosexuality. It was highly accepted e.g. in ancient Greece, the cradle of our culture.

    It has been mentioned many times in this board, but people tend to forget: homosexuality is quite common in most if not all animal species studied. Humans are no exception to this rule: homosexuality is natural.

    Homosexuality is practiced among consenting adults, without directly and inevitably harming anybody.

    Pedophilia is totally different because it can be extremely (psychologically) harmful to the minor involved.

    Bestiality is different because the animal cannot be considered "consenting", though the process may not necessarily be traumatizing for the animal part (I am not an expert... ).

    Besides, the discussion is about marriage (leading to certain rights and duties), and not about sex. Bestiality and pedophilia are exclusively about the act, not about rights associated with marriage, so it is a totally different topic.

    Now, polygamy. It is between consenting adults, no direct harm involved necessarily. I don't think it should be illegal, but polygamy would lead to a much more complicated situation legally, away from the 1 to 1 situation in same or mixed sex marriage, so it would be much more difficult to implement legally (while not morally unacceptable in my view) than same sex civil union.
    Last edited by clulup; 07/12/2006 at 08:48 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by nesman89
    I believe a read an article a few days ago stating less than 3% of the world is gay.
    <Irony>Less than 0.25% of the world population is Jewish, then why worry about Israel?</IRONY>
    It is about minority rights.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  20. NRG
    NRG is offline
    NRG's Avatar
    Posts
    3,657 Posts
    Global Posts
    3,670 Global Posts
    #20  
    Let me pose these questions to you folks. Instead of trying to seperate gay marriage from polygamy, let's try and seperate gay marriage from average/standard marriage.

    • How is polygamy different then average marriage?
    • How is gay marriage different to average marriage?
Page 1 of 15 12345611 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions