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  1. #21  
    I typically read but don't get involved in these OT issues but oh well, here goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    It has been mentioned many times in this board, but people tend to forget: homosexuality is quite common in most if not all animal species studied. Humans are no exception to this rule: homosexuality is natural.
    This to me is one of the keys in the whole issue over gay marriage. The majority of the American population (total assumption on my part, but...) believes that being gay is a choice. If the majority believed otherwise, I think gay marriage would become legal.

    If you believe being gay is not a choice (but genetically predisposed), then one could make that as a distinction between gay marriage and polygamy since polygamy is certainly (IMO) a choice.

    So I guess, here comes the "being gay is/is not a choice" debate
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Now, polygamy. It is between consenting adults, no direct harm involved necessarily. I don't think it should be illegal, but polygamy would lead to a much more complicated situation legally.....
    omg, the lawyers would have a field day. whole new practices would spring up overnight!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by scottymomo
    This to me is one of the keys in the whole issue over gay marriage. The majority of the American population (total assumption on my part, but...) believes that being gay is a choice. If the majority believed otherwise, I think gay marriage would become legal.

    If you believe being gay is not a choice (but genetically predisposed), then one could make that as a distinction between gay marriage and polygamy since polygamy is certainly (IMO) a choice.

    So I guess, here comes the "being gay is/is not a choice" debate
    Animals cannot choose to be homosexual, yet many of them are, there is no doubt about that. So why assume being homosexual is a choice in humans?
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup in another thread
    Homosexuality (and bisexuality) is very common in the animal kingdom, in fact, in many species much more common than in humans:

    "Gay and lesbian geese stay together year after year. Bottlenose dolphins don't form male-female couples, but males often form lifelong pairs with other males. Some are interested only in males, but others are bisexual and happily indulge in beak-genital propulsion and more with male or female alike. Male black swans court and form stable pairs. With two males, they are able to defend huge territories from other swan couples, which sounds like a double-income-no-kids situation except that they often manage to wangle some eggs from somewhere -- all right, they steal them -- and become model parents, twice as successful as straight parents." Also e.g. male pairs of penguins are quite frequent, and mostly more successfull in hatching eggs (from female penguins of course...).

    For more information apart from the quote above, see here or here, the latter containing an interesting table about the percentage of homosexual and bisexual members of some species. In our closest relatives, the bonobo chimpanzees, 100% of the members are bisexual, for instance.
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    #24  
    I believe homosexuality is a choice. i go back to pedophelia this is a choice as well albeit a very disturbing choice. I saw a news article about six months ago about a pedophile who had a web site stating he believed there was nothing wrong with his views (his choice to be a pedophile) obviously this didn't sit well with the parents of the kids he had on his web site. this is the crux of the whole discussion if no one "chose" to be gay then we wouldn't have the gay marriage debate.

    i understand the two consenting adults thing. but two adults can consent to anything. it still doesn't make it right.
  5. NRG
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    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by nesman89
    I believe homosexuality is a choice.
    What you believe and what is are 2 different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by nesman89
    i go back to pedophelia this is a choice as well albeit a very disturbing choice.
    Huh, is this why you are calling homosexuality a choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by nesman89
    this is the crux of the whole discussion if no one "chose" to be gay then we wouldn't have the gay marriage debate.
    So is would you get behind gay marriage, if science proves it is not a choice?
  6. NRG
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    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by scottymomo
    I typically read but don't get involved in these OT issues but oh well, here goes.



    This to me is one of the keys in the whole issue over gay marriage. The majority of the American population (total assumption on my part, but...) believes that being gay is a choice. If the majority believed otherwise, I think gay marriage would become legal.

    If you believe being gay is not a choice (but genetically predisposed), then one could make that as a distinction between gay marriage and polygamy since polygamy is certainly (IMO) a choice.

    So I guess, here comes the "being gay is/is not a choice" debate
    Sounds like a reasonable thought.
  7. #27  
    I honestly question the whole concept of marriage. Which, in human existence, is a relatively new development. It roughly began in the Roman Empire and initially was used as a way of securing and keeping property. The Catholic church co-opted the idea for similar reasons and made it a "holy" sacrament with a lifetime commitment. And it helped men feel secure that their children were actually their offspring. Which was not always the case.

    Married women, throughout much of the history of marriage, have had few if any rights. Sure there were exceptions. But for your regular, run-of-the-mill married woman, she had no rights and was, under law, considered the "property" of the husband. This still holds true in some parts of the world today.

    Marriage continues to change and evolve as a concept. And there will be lots of argument and feeling about it.

    But marriage is not something that can be construed as a natural state of being.
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  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by nesman89
    I believe homosexuality is a choice.
    It is not about believing, it is about data. Look at the substantial numbers of homosexual animals from various species in nature. Why do you think there is no such natural basis for homosexuality in humans? Why should there be lots and lots of animal species with high numbers of homosexual individuals, but no homosexuals "by nature" in the human species?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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    #29  
    I'm calling homosexuality a choice because I think you can choose to participate or not. just like a pedophile can choose to be or not to be. I think we all have tough choices in our life it's what you do with those choices.

    most gay people I know said they would never choose this lifestyle I tend to believe you choose what you think makes you happy. the path of least resistance. if it's too hard to choose to be straight you fall back on I didn't choose to be this way.


    Nrg said.
    What you believe and what is are 2 different things.
    I thought the whole point of this forum was to express your own opinion about the topic being discussed.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by bheuss
    But marriage is not something that can be construed as a natural state of being.
    Many animal species form stable pairs, some of them life-long. Humans seem to fall into that category to a large extent, though cultural influences play a strong role of course. Note that also in animal species which form life-long stable pairs, the "infidelity" rate is substantial according to genetic tests in the offspring, but that's another story.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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    #31  
    Why should there be lots and lots of animal species with high numbers of homosexual individuals, but no homosexuals "by nature" in the human species?

    We have a higher level of thinking which determines what choices we can make. they are called animals because they don't "think" they just do
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by nesman89
    I'm calling homosexuality a choice because I think you can choose to participate or not.
    Since it is consensual and it doesn't hurt anybody, why should they choose not to participate?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  13. NRG
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    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by nesman89
    We have a higher level of thinking which determines what choices we can make. they are called animals because they don't "think" they just do
    Uh Oh.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by nesman89
    We have a higher level of thinking which determines what choices we can make. they are called animals because they don't "think" they just do
    So at least you accept the fact that there are homosexuals by nature also in humans, you just think they should choose not act according to it. Why not?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  15. NRG
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    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by nesman89



    I thought the whole point of this forum was to express your own opinion about the topic being discussed.
    It is and always will be, albeit sometimes with a heavier hand than other times. But, you should atleast form an opinion w/ soild data, or foundation if you like.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ...Besides, the discussion is about marriage (leading to certain rights and duties), and not about sex. Bestiality and pedophilia are exclusively about the act, not about rights associated with marriage, so it is a totally different topic....
    Hmmm. It would seem to separate a lifestyle that is about the act undermines the argument for homosexual marriage.

    Isn't the classification of homosexual one that is predicated on the act--not merely the sex act itself, but the distinction that the sex act happens to occur between two people of the same gender?
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    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by scottymomo
    So I guess, here comes the "being gay is/is not a choice" debate
    Not really. It should be legal whether its a choice or not.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by bheuss
    I honestly question the whole concept of marriage. Which, in human existence, is a relatively new development. It roughly began in the Roman Empire...
    When did the Roman empire begin??
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Animals cannot choose to be homosexual, yet many of them are, there is no doubt about that. So why assume being homosexual is a choice in humans?
    On what basis do we know that animals can not "choose" to be homosexual?
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    #40  
    you can choose to do whatever you like. again just because someone thinks it's right doesn't make it so. polygamists thought their way of life was a commandment from God but the Government decided it wasn't and made it illegal.(they are a minority also speaking of minority rights) even though many still practice it today. it is not recognized as a valid marriage. hence many people are homosexual because they choose to be. so as the polygamy arguement goes it shouldn't be recognized as a valid marriage either.
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