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  1. #201  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Putting aside for a second the disturbing idea of the government making a determination on "optimal family units", lots of families fit your description of "less than optimal". If there is no homophobia involved, why the singling out of homosexuals not dirovcees, or single parents?
    Divorce may not be optimal but its preferable to keeping hateful or abusive situations together.
  2. #202  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Divorce may not be optimal but its preferable to keeping hateful or abusive situations together.
    Then if there is no discrimination, why single out homosexuals? Why not single out hate?
  3. #203  
    Or better yet, why not stop legislating morality?
  4. #204  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Or better yet, why not stop legislating morality?
    Because, then we'd have to face real issues like the economy, poverty, jobs, education, and crime.

    To an extent, I believe that is true. What many people see as important issues, and not to detract from them, I consider to be attempts at misdirection. For example, gay rights, flag burning, swearing on TV/radio. Overall, none of those things will demonstrably improve/degrade anyone's life.

    But the first list of things doesn't have the flash value of the second list.
    Brent
    T650 on Sprint's Wireless Wonder
  5. #205  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Divorce may not be optimal but its preferable to keeping hateful or abusive situations together.
    Thats just your opinion. The catholic church would not agree.

    Surur
  6. #206  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Or better yet, why not stop legislating morality?
    Any good law is based on a moral proposition.
  7. #207  
    Quote Originally Posted by bheuss
    Because, then we'd have to face real issues like the economy, poverty, jobs, education, and crime.

    To an extent, I believe that is true. What many people see as important issues, and not to detract from them, I consider to be attempts at misdirection. For example, gay rights, flag burning, swearing on TV/radio. Overall, none of those things will demonstrably improve/degrade anyone's life.

    But the first list of things doesn't have the flash value of the second list.
    Nor does it drive rural folk to the polls after the stuff on the first list give you an approval rating in the twenties.
  8. #208  
    Not to get too far off course, but the Catholic Church has somewhat softened it's stance re divorce/separation. So, if they can change . . . .

    "Divorced Catholics lose none of their rights in the Church, except the right to enter a new marriage, until the Church declares them free to marry. All Catholics, divorced Catholics included, are free to receive the sacraments, provided they are not in a state of serious sin, (i.e. have not remarried "outside the Church," or are not cohabiting with another partner). If they are in another marital (or cohabiting) union, they are not permitted to receive the sacraments. "
    Brent
    T650 on Sprint's Wireless Wonder
  9. #209  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Any good law is based on a moral proposition.
    And if that moral proposition is hatred, it's not a good law.
  10. #210  
    Quote Originally Posted by bheuss
    Not to get too far off course, but the Catholic Church has somewhat softened it's stance re divorce/separation. So, if they can change . . . .

    "Divorced Catholics lose none of their rights in the Church, except the right to enter a new marriage, until the Church declares them free to marry. All Catholics, divorced Catholics included, are free to receive the sacraments, provided they are not in a state of serious sin, (i.e. have not remarried "outside the Church," or are not cohabiting with another partner). If they are in another marital (or cohabiting) union, they are not permitted to receive the sacraments. "
    Well as long as they practice celibacy until they die, or confess after every "union".

    And actually, if you believe that Jesus was a God, or even just call yourself a Christian, it is difficult get around the fact that Jesus outwardly admonished his followers not to divorce.
  11. #211  
    Just to add empasis to the point regarding the defense of marriage, when you (hypothetical) daughter starts to live with some-one "in sin", and you admonish her about it, do you think she will say its not worth marrying because the gays can get married, or will she say what's the point, as a lot of people are not getting married in any case, and most people who get married get divorced.

    The defense of marriage is a specious argument.

    Surur
  12. #212  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Just to add empasis to the point regarding the defense of marriage, when you (hypothetical) daughter starts to live with some-one "in sin", and you admonish her about it, do you think she will say its not worth marrying because the gays can get married, or will she say what's the point, as a lot of people are not getting married in any case, and most people who get married get divorced.

    The defense of marriage is a specious argument.

    Surur
    Another example would be ...

    If gays were allowed to marry, would it somehow "damage the institute of marriage"? Would it affect your marriage? Would you decide to get divorced because gays can marry?
  13. #213  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    But what do YOU think. You have your own sexual preference. Do you think you can change it at will? This is not a research issue. Its one you can simply decide for yourself.

    Surur
    Yes I can
  14. #214  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Yes I can
    Well ... ... and ... ... . Uh, nevermind.
  15. #215  
    I think he means he can be gay if he wants to be. That's Bi, isn't it

    Surur
  16. #216  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Again, agreed.


    I'm not for passing new laws but also not for redefining the existing one. But I disagree that the rise in "alternative family styles" is not part of the decline in marriage and traditional families. Of course, thise decline can't be traced to one single event. But its clear that cultural mores have been loosened and than people find it increasingly unnecessary to commit. One example is in poor and minority communities where the rise in single parent households has skyrocketed. I know that poor single parents have just as much capacity for being nuturing parents but I don't think it unfair to say that the need to put food on the table reduces the amount of time necessary to raise those children in such a nurturing way.


    I think your portrayal of this view in unwarranted. It seems clear to me, as I stated above, that a single parent most often does not have the time needed to devote to raising children.


    The problem is that large numbers of single parent families lead to a second and third generation of larger numbers of single parent families. Where are these "loving grandparents" going to come from when often there is only one parent? Will fathers suddenly begin to care about thier families once they have grand kids?
    I am not a proponent of single parent families. I intended to make that clear. It takes two to conceive and I do not believe people who are not committed to one another for a term at least long enough to raise the children should conceive.

    But we cannot have it both ways. We cannot oppose single-parent households and then tell willing and able gay couples that not only can they not adopt, they cannot even foster. We cannot oppose single-parent households and say that a man who is willing and able may be a husband to more than one woman and father to their children may not do so.
  17. #217  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    But we cannot have it both ways. We cannot oppose single-parent households and then tell willing and able gay couples that not only can they not adopt, they cannot even foster.
    I think I may not understand your argument properly, but gay adoption and foster care is already allowed in all but 2 states is it not?

    So if we have already decided that gay couples can make perfectly acceptable parents, what reason do we have apart from hatred to disallow them to marry as well? Wouldn't the children we already allow them to adopt be better of given the stability & other benefits afforded by the institution of marriage?

    Or is it just a lie that we have the best interest of the children at heart when we preach "family values". Which kind of leaves us back at hatred again does it not?
  18. #218  
    Ive seen research which says single parent families have less children (obviously children are less affordable and more difficult to manage alone) so that pyramid of deprivation probably does not sync with reality.

    I actually think if you dig deep enough you will find words such as perversion and feelings such as revulsion at the bottom of all these rationalizations, probably related to America's Puritanical roots.

    Surur
  19. #219  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Ive seen research which says single parent families have less children (obviously children are less affordable and more difficult to manage alone) so that pyramid of deprivation probably does not sync with reality.

    I actually think if you dig deep enough you will find words such as perversion and feelings such as revulsion at the bottom of all these rationalizations, probably related to America's Puritanical roots.

    Surur
    but votes inspired by revulsion and hatred count exactly the same as those inspired by ideas
  20. #220  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    I think he means he can be gay if he wants to be. That's Bi, isn't it

    Surur
    I think that is a Kinsey Scale 3 or 4. The interesting thing about the Kinsey scale is that there are more 1s and 6s then the sum of 2-5. It is called a dumbell distribution. (Kinsey was a 3-4).
    http://www.biresource.org/pamphlets/scales.html
    Last edited by whmurray; 07/14/2006 at 08:52 PM.

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