Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 58
  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    that most of what we know is from the new testament is why I think the critics have a dilemma. To minimize the messianic concept the authrois ae impuned. But those same authors are relied upon for the very thesis.
    Anyone studying Jesus has a dillema, unless they accept everything in the Bible without question.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    The messianic claims are apparent to the religious leaders of his day (at least accoding to the new testament).
    Do you have examples? I cannot think of an instance of Jesus claiming to be the messiah, but if he had, I wonder if a Jew or especially a Muslim would find that credible, or if an historian would find that consistent with his well known modesty.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    If your view of Jesus is that he is a God, then it is likely that you would think God wrote all the books that support the version of the truth that you have chosen to believe.
    That's not really a fair statement. I went to a very conservative catholic university for undergrad and studied very closely with very religious philosophers and theologians. Not a single one of them believed that 'god wrote' the bible, yet they all believed that Jesus was the incarnation of God.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus
    That's not really a fair statement. I went to a very conservative catholic university for undergrad and studied very closely with very religious philosophers and theologians. Not a single one of them believed that 'god wrote' the bible, yet they all believed that Jesus was the incarnation of God.
    Because of a previous discussion we had, I read that when shopharim asked "who was the author of ... Mark, John, etc", that he was implying that it was ultimately God. I could be wrong, I was only responding to the implication.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus
    That's not really a fair statement. I went to a very conservative catholic university for undergrad and studied very closely with very religious philosophers and theologians. Not a single one of them believed that 'god wrote' the bible, yet they all believed that Jesus was the incarnation of God.
    Perhaps. However, there is a large population that believes that the Bible is "the literal word of God" and that it is the fount of all wisdom.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    not "gospels" hoovs ... gospel
    When you're talking about a book containing THE Gospels, I think its important to make the distinction.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    When you're talking about a book containing THE Gospels, I think its important to make the distinction.
    hopefully we just did
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Perhaps. However, there is a large population that believes that the Bible is "the literal word of God" and that it is the fount of all wisdom.
    The failure to make appropriate distinctions about these things is why catechism is so very important. Sadly, its mostly lost in the Protestant world and, seemingly, increasingly de-emphasized in the Catholic.
  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    If you are an historian, you might conclude that the author of John for example was Hebrew named John who lived 90 to 120 years after Jesus.
    According to his writing, he lived at the same time as Jesus.
  10.    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Anyone studying Jesus has a dillema, unless they accept everything in the Bible without question.
    Not clear on the dilemma to which you are referring.

    I see a dilemma in the following:

    1. The biblical text shows Jesus making messianic claims of himself
    2. Those claims are said to be added by the writers for self-serving purposes

    At this point, we must hold the writers' credibility in question

    3. Historian characterizes Jesus' work as a "kingdom movement"

    The primary source for information to support this thesis is the biblical text--by the very same authors whose credibility is being questioned.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    According to his writing, he lived at the same time as Jesus.
    "his"?

    In literature, a point of view is the related experience of the narrator, not that of the author. And "his writing" says that the Gospel was written by a follower of Jesus referred to as the Beloved Disciple. With respect to the time of Jesus, even shcolars who worship jesus put the dade of writing around 90AD.
  12.    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Do you have examples? I cannot think of an instance of Jesus claiming to be the messiah, but if he had, I wonder if a Jew or especially a Muslim would find that credible, or if an historian would find that consistent with his well known modesty.
    A few quick ones...

    Matthew 26:62 - And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
    26:63 - But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
    26:64 - Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
    26:65 - Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying *, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy
    -----
    Mark 14:60 - And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
    14:61 - But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
    14:62 - And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
    14:63 - Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
    -----
    Luke 4:17 - And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
    4:18 - The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted *, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    4:19 - To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
    4:20 - And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
    4:21 - And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
    4:22 - And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?
    4:23 - And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
    4:24 - And he said, Verily I say unto you *, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
    4:25 - But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up * three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
    4:26 - But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
    4:27 - And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
    4:28 - And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
    -----
    Luke 22:66 - And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council, saying,
    22:67 - Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:
    22:68 - And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go.
    22:69 - Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
    22:70 - Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
    22:71 - And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.
    -----
    John 4:25 - The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
    4:26 - Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
    -----
    John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.
    10:31 - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
    10:32 - Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    10:33 - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
    -----
    John 14:6 - Jesus said unto him (Thomas) I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Father but by me
  13.    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    ...but if he had, I wonder if a Jew or especially a Muslim would find that credible, or if an historian would find that consistent with his well known modesty.
    Not sure what evidence of modesty the historians point to. But, is it immodest to speak of who one is?
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Not clear on the dilemma to which you are referring.

    I see a dilemma in the following:

    1. The biblical text shows Jesus making messianic claims of himself
    2. Those claims are said to be added by the writers for self-serving purposes

    At this point, we must hold the writers' credibility in question

    3. Historian characterizes Jesus' work as a "kingdom movement"

    The primary source for information to support this thesis is the biblical text--by the very same authors whose credibility is being questioned.
    This combined with the fact that we have no first hand accounts of Jesus' life or words is exactly why Crossan compares studying Jesus to studying subatomic particles by observing how other particles behave around them, and as I said, These problems are present for anyone studying Jesus, unless by studying Jesus, you simply mean taking the author(s) at their word, and accepting all of what they say without question. But I would not call that studying.

    P.S. I still have not seen any of Jesus' Claims of being a god, or being the messiah, that you speak of. Not saying they don't exist.

    Edit, i see your post now.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Not sure what evidence of modesty the historians point to. But, is it immodest to speak of who one is?
    Uh, most would find it immodest to claim to be a God.

    And i can't believe you dont know of any evidence of Jesus' modesty.
  16.    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    "his"?

    In literature, a point of view is the related experience of the narrator, not that of the author. And "his writing" says that the Gospel was written by a follower of Jesus referred to as the Beloved Disciple. With respect to the time of Jesus, even shcolars who worship jesus put the dade of writing around 90AD.
    I understand the conclusion. There is such a thing as referring to one's self in the third person. However, that is semantics, not proof.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I understand the conclusion. There is such a thing as referring to one's self in the third person. However, that is semantics, not proof.
    Proof? Only a zealot attempts to PROVE his faith to others. And if one is faithfull, he requires no proof.

    From the beginning, I have only been pointing out that your beliefs about the bible are only your own, and those of other Christians.
  18.    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Uh, most would find it immodest to claim to be a God.

    And i can't believe you dont know of any evidence of Jesus' modesty.
    Most might find it immodest to have one violently drive people out of the temple when the leaders allowed it.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Most might find it immodest to have one violently drive people out of the temple when the leaders allowed it.
    Yes, and the outburst at the temple was thought to be Jesus' most "out of character" act. And it got him executed.
  20.    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    Proof? Only a zealot attempts to PROVE his faith to others. And if one is faithfull, he requires no proof.

    From the beginning, I have only been pointing out that your beliefs about the bible are only your own, and those of other Christians.
    I'm not trying to prove my faith. In fact, I was confessing that while an author can write in the third person, that possiblity is not proof that this was the case in John.

    It was a concession.
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions