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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by g-funkster
    Are we talking about the same Enron that used California's deregulation of energy to systematically shut down energy plants to skyrocket energy prices and lead to California's rolling blackouts crisis of 2001?

    If you haven't seen it, Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room (2005) is a pretty good documentary about that and more about the company's downward spiral. It's still available at most torrent sites if you can't find it in your neighborhood video store.
    Yes, if you lived in California during that time you wouldn't have so much "love" for the man who bought California to its knees.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Joe
    Yes, if you lived in California during that time you wouldn't have so much "love" for the man who bought California to its knees.
    I could be wrong but I don't think there's any love floating around here for Ken Lay. But I do think there is an attempt at respect for the dead.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    It's innocent until found guilty.
    And I think in a case like this it's impossible to say for sure that he got a fair trial. Not that it matters, but right now I'm 45 feet from the courthouse where he was tried.
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       #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    And I think in a case like this it's impossible to say for sure that he got a fair trial. Not that it matters, but right now I'm 45 feet from the courthouse where he was tried.
    I think you would feel differently if you were an Enron shareholder/employee or a CA resident in 2001. IMO, he got what he deserved.

    Since you live in Houston, do you know any former Enron employees? You might ask them their feelings on this.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by dwman
    I think you would feel differently if you were an Enron shareholder/employee or a CA resident in 2001. IMO, he got what he deserved.

    Since you live in Houston, do you know any former Enron employees? You might ask them their feelings on this.
    Hear, Hear
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by dwman
    I think you would feel differently if you were an Enron shareholder/employee or a CA resident in 2001. IMO, he got what he deserved.

    Since you live in Houston, do you know any former Enron employees? You might ask them their feelings on this.
    I worked with a former Enron employee as of a week ago (he just quit), and I actually lost a job in the whole energy trading liquidity crunch brought on by Enron's fall. People are mad when they lose their jobs in general, and yes, they were mad at Enron, especially since there was no money left to pay severance.

    I'm sure people were mad at Webvan and numerous other now-bankrupt companies. And I know a lot of people at ticked off at Vonage right now. People get angry when they lose money, but anger should never be the only requirement for punishment.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by dwman
    IMO, he got what he deserved.
    My personal opinion is that if he got what he deserved, the people truly responsible got much less than they deserved. But such is the nature of the court of public opinion.
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       #28  
    I do agree with you, but accountability starts at the top. I actually would have preferred to see him live out his remaining years behind bars.

    Unfortunately, there are those individuals that get away without so much as a slap on the wrist. I am looking forward to seeing what happens when Skilling is sentenced.
  9. #29  
    Personally I do not feel happy about anyone dying. At the same time while some people try to make the case that we are over punishing certain people for white collar crimes I am afraid I have little sympathy for those who abuse their power for their own greed. Power corrupts and there is too much corruption out there.

    I welcome attempts to fight it, even though I know it will always be a problem. It is like terrorism in that respect - a never ending problem, and a problem which has huge costs to our society.

    On a separate note, I wonder how President Bush feels about this, from what I understand, Ken Lay was his friend and biggest political contributer. I imagine he feels sympathetic. He has clearly shown he is very loyal to his friends and those who have helped him. I imagine it is frustrating for him not to be able to openly express what he feels about the situation, and it is too bad, I would be interested to know about his perspective on this.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by dwman
    I do agree with you, but accountability starts at the top.
    I do believe that that is one of the best things to come out of all this -- chief executives are genuinely scared that there is funny business going on in their organization. That said, I think a 100% zero tolerance policy doesn't make sense. For instance, if someone is raiding a cash register in Oregon, should the CEO of Whole Foods be held accountable? It's tough to draw that line, but I think the concept is crucial.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I imagine it is frustrating for [President Bush] not to be able to openly express what he feels about the situation, and it is too bad, I would be interested to know about his perspective on this.
    If he was indeed a good friend, I likewise feel sorry for the president. Hopefully we'll get some light on the whole situation in the years following his presidency (unless Jeb is elected president, in which case we'll have to wait longer -- a prospect I'm sure thrills a lot people here. )
  12. NRG
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    I do believe that that is one of the best things to come out of all this -- chief executives are genuinely scared that there is funny business going on in their organization. That said, I think a 100% zero tolerance policy doesn't make sense. For instance, if someone is raiding a cash register in Oregon, should the CEO of Whole Foods be held accountable? It's tough to draw that line, but I think the concept is crucial.
    No but he should recognize it on the books, if someone hasn't corrected the matter already then he should correct it himself, if he doesn't correct it, then there is a reason why.
  13. NRG
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    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    (unless Jeb is elected president, in which case we'll have to wait longer -- a prospect I'm sure thrills a lot people here. )
    He sure won't be getting alot of votes from the West Coast of Florida, not after his flip-flop on drilling off our coast. He was againist before he was for it, well he changed his stance because the end of his terms is coming up.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    No but he should recognize it on the books, if someone hasn't corrected the matter already then he should correct it himself, if he doesn't correct it, then there is a reason why.
    But if he's never told of it, can we expect him to act on it?
  15. NRG
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    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramsauer
    But if he's never told of it, can we expect him to act on it?
    He does have to sign off on financial papers. It is his duty to ask about descrpencies and it is one of the reasons why they get paid.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    He does have to sign off on financial papers. It is his duty to ask about descrpencies and it is one of the reasons why they get paid.
    What I'm describing is a couple hundred bucks? We and shareholders can't expect CEOs to do a manual count of cash register holdings... My point is that "descrpencies" are easy to talk about, but what they actually look like is a completely different matter. Listen, all I did was throw out an example to show that it's tough to draw a line between what needs to be reported (Refco) and things that go on all the time (I bet someone, somewhere has stolen money from a cash register, and it hasn't been reported to the SEC).
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    What I'm describing is a couple hundred bucks? We and shareholders can't expect CEOs to do a manual count of cash register holdings... My point is that "descrpencies" are easy to talk about, but what they actually look like is a completely different matter. Listen, all I did was throw out an example to show that it's tough to draw a line between what needs to be reported (Refco) and things that go on all the time (I bet someone, somewhere has stolen money from a cash register, and it hasn't been reported to the SEC).
    Just for point of reference, the value of 200 dollars in a cash register is 1/300,000,000th the 60 billion dollars of stock that were turned into scrap paper by the Enron fraud.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Just for point of reference, the value of 200 dollars in a cash register is 1/300,000,000th the 60 billion dollars of stock that were turned into scrap paper by the Enron fraud.
    And thus the need for a line. My point. Not someone else. :-)
  19. #39  
    The magnitude of difference between the example you cited and the actual situation with Enron is like comparing a penny to a million dollars. But for what its worth I would rather enforcement directed itself at the million dollars and not worry about finding the penny. Its a matter or priority rather than drawing lines, I think

    At any rate, is serving time in a minimal security country club and having to give back the money you stole enough deterence?
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    is serving time in a minimal security country club and having to give back the money you stole enough deterence?
    To keep it ever from happening again? Of course not. But then again, summary execution also isn't enough.
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